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Bowser9
Guest
Agreed, Mithrain. Hopes are high, and it'd be great to see some old faces back on here for New Threat's final form.
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Miacis
Guest
I've never tried physical-damage Vincent, but he's pretty darn good as a pure support tank where his limits don't matter too much. With his default "build" (MAG/VIT + STR), you've got a Barret level tank that gets his damage from counters, and spends his actual turns healing non-trivial amounts, or flinging a fireball here and there. Against bosses with high damage output, it's not a bad choice. Of the main potential tanks (Barret, Cait Sith, Cid??) he's one of two with a long range weapon. Plus, while Barret is constantly choosing between tanking and attacking (Atk or Def stacks? Short or long range weapons? Sadness or Fury? +Vit weapons or high Atk ones?) Vincent tanks, supports, and always uses a gun to counter anyway... and fittingly, doesn't care about staying Sad forever.
Without completely reworking Vincent's limits, I just don't think there's much to make them worth using. The way I see it, it's his main character flaw that needs to be worked around by the player to use him. There's just too little reason to waste time putting him in the front row to launch random attacks (that may end up being magical anyways) when he could stay in the back taking pot-shots at the enemy.
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Robo Jesus
Guest
Ok, I laughed at the "and fittingly, doesn't care about staying Sad forever" line. Thank you for that.
Still, I've found that Vincent is hitting his limit after two, maybe even three hits if the enemy is weak enough, even with Sad (Mideel, Ancient Forest, and the Northern Crater being the areas I'm focused on atm). That in turn makes his usability in a physical-damage based role pretty much entirely unworkable. And that makes it utterly useless to use any of his rank up options that don't support a setup like you suggested.
That is not a good thing with things left as-is. And it won't take much to 'fix' that either. Just slowing down how quickly his limit breaks fill fixes that issue with using Vincent in a physical-damage based role.
That's why I had to speak up and say something.
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strife98
Guest
You could easily remedy that by having Mug + Added Cut, or just mug really. Once I got 3 mugs I went through the rest of the game with each character having Mug to save my limits for important things.(Also Mug + Added Cut is super good for Healing Staff Aerith)
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Robo Jesus
Guest
Vincent Mug Glitch (which I brought up earlier for why I normally do not use "Mug" with Vincent).
That said, I have not messed around with Added Cut to see if that would get around that particular canon glitch.
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strife98
Guest
Ah I completely forgot about that. Well, could do Deathblow + Added Cut instead.
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Robo Jesus
Guest
Deathblow is mostly worthless on Vincent due to his low luck and weapon percentages. Canon had two weapons with a 255% hit rate for Vincent, but this mod only has one such weapon for Vincent with that hit rate (not counting the Masamune), and even then it's an end-game weapon, which again, majorly messes with Vincent's usability outside of one type of setup with things as they are. :shrugs:
And a person should not have to waste two materia slots in order to be able to physically hit generic enemies when they chose to use attacks.
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strife98
Guest
Yeah, would have to bank on Mug + Added Cut to work properly so you'd get two attacks out of it. I mean, deathblow is kind of useless in general unless you have a super high percentage hit rate weapon, but the extra added cut makes it a little less useless. Though, it's definitely kind of pointless to put on Vincent. Well, sometimes you have to sacrifice stuff to make a character work the way you want. I personally would work toward a magic based Vincent though. Magic Counter would definitely get some work done. Or just make him a full cover counter tank, and have him forever defending. Put some defensive and healing spells on him (or just Enemy Skill) for emergencies and he'd be set.
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Robo Jesus
Guest
Indeed, but like I said, as a caster there are usually better options available due to those character's innates or equipment, and as a physical fighter Vincent is all but worthless at the moment due to how insanely quickly his Limit Breaks fill. In addition to that, most of Vincent's weapons are also specced towards towards their use in physical attacks. Hence why I had to speak up.
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Miacis
Guest
Hopefully this isn't running it too much into the ground, but I think the problem is less Vincent's balance, and more what is you seem to expect of him.
If you look at Vincent's stat spread, he's not really geared towards using his turns on using the fight command. Dex is essentially absent from his SP ranks, and most of his guns boost either his magic or inflict status effect, so the only attacks he's gonna be getting consistently is through counters. Sure you can gear him up to do more physical damage, but to me it's like Magic Barret:you don't just use him as a magic DPS, you also use his natural abilities towards tanking (magic counters) or physical damage (mixed phys/mag offense). Similarly, if you want pure physical DPS (or pure magical DPS) Vincent, yes, there are probably better choices, but what matters is he can be somewhat polyvalent in that role. There aren't any other characters who can tank physical, heal a lot and fling spells/Osmose (not Barret), and still get decent physical counters off from the back row (not Cait Sith). It's not ideal super awesome OP, but in situations where defense and support is key (Curator says hi), it's definitely worth it.
If Vincent's limits are made slower, to me all it's going to do is improve his already-mediocre Fight potential, at the cost of making the limits essentially worthless. As it stands, they can still serve a bit of a end-of-fight last push when you're certain you can end this safely. Having them charge quickly means they're always on hand, but if that's gone, well... I guess a hypothetical limit defense boost would allow him to duel more easily, but having an innate that won't have much use outside of the Battle Arena seems kinda eh to me.
Plus, isn't the Vincent Mug glitch purely graphical? It really shouldn't prevent you from using a build you want to use, unless the lack of damage numbers on the following attack is that debilitating.
If you look at Vincent's stat spread, he's not really geared towards using his turns on using the fight command. Dex is essentially absent from his SP ranks, and most of his guns boost either his magic or inflict status effect, so the only attacks he's gonna be getting consistently is through counters. Sure you can gear him up to do more physical damage, but to me it's like Magic Barret:you don't just use him as a magic DPS, you also use his natural abilities towards tanking (magic counters) or physical damage (mixed phys/mag offense). Similarly, if you want pure physical DPS (or pure magical DPS) Vincent, yes, there are probably better choices, but what matters is he can be somewhat polyvalent in that role. There aren't any other characters who can tank physical, heal a lot and fling spells/Osmose (not Barret), and still get decent physical counters off from the back row (not Cait Sith). It's not ideal super awesome OP, but in situations where defense and support is key (Curator says hi), it's definitely worth it.
If Vincent's limits are made slower, to me all it's going to do is improve his already-mediocre Fight potential, at the cost of making the limits essentially worthless. As it stands, they can still serve a bit of a end-of-fight last push when you're certain you can end this safely. Having them charge quickly means they're always on hand, but if that's gone, well... I guess a hypothetical limit defense boost would allow him to duel more easily, but having an innate that won't have much use outside of the Battle Arena seems kinda eh to me.
Plus, isn't the Vincent Mug glitch purely graphical? It really shouldn't prevent you from using a build you want to use, unless the lack of damage numbers on the following attack is that debilitating.
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Sega Chief
Guest
Sorry I've not been as responsive the last few days.
About Vincent's attacks, they do get locked down when his Limit gauge fills and Deathblow is a bit haphazard as a replacement. Added Cut was swapped with DB for the new build but this still requires that an initial command be used to get a physical attack out of him.
I could revisit a plan I had in an older build to set different rates at which the Limit gauge would build for Vincent but this involves working around a limitation in how many Limits can be learned by any one character. The idea would be to have a Limit level that 'never charges', leaving his attack command free for use. This means shuffling around Limits though and would likely mean having Chaos be learned naturally rather than through an item.
The Vincent Mug glitch only occurs with a specific weapon-type equipped. There's actually several separate models for Barret and Vincent in the game files to handle the different weapon types, and the one Vincent uses for certain rifles doesn't end correctly when reading the Mug animation, causing the next animation to 'skip'. It can be fixed, so I might look into that although it can be handy for skipping a certain Summon animation :3
There's also an enemy attack that does this skip, which I think is used by Screamers on Mt. Nibel (their war-cry attack).
About Vincent's attacks, they do get locked down when his Limit gauge fills and Deathblow is a bit haphazard as a replacement. Added Cut was swapped with DB for the new build but this still requires that an initial command be used to get a physical attack out of him.
I could revisit a plan I had in an older build to set different rates at which the Limit gauge would build for Vincent but this involves working around a limitation in how many Limits can be learned by any one character. The idea would be to have a Limit level that 'never charges', leaving his attack command free for use. This means shuffling around Limits though and would likely mean having Chaos be learned naturally rather than through an item.
The Vincent Mug glitch only occurs with a specific weapon-type equipped. There's actually several separate models for Barret and Vincent in the game files to handle the different weapon types, and the one Vincent uses for certain rifles doesn't end correctly when reading the Mug animation, causing the next animation to 'skip'. It can be fixed, so I might look into that although it can be handy for skipping a certain Summon animation :3
There's also an enemy attack that does this skip, which I think is used by Screamers on Mt. Nibel (their war-cry attack).
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Renyth
Guest
Hey there Sega, been a long fan of this mod so wanted to come on and root for ya.
Did think of something for this Vincent thing though if it's possible. Would it be possible to create a Materia that just gives the attack command as if it was a command materia like the others? Vincent does kind of have Protomateria built into him as lore which could sort of fit. It would seem a little silly perhaps since it's a guaranteed used slot on him and only effective if he's saving Limits for something. Just a thought though I'm curious if that sort of Materia could work. Thinking on it it'd be nice on multiple characters if you wanted to save limits and MP for certain fights.
Keep up the good work man, hands down the most refreshing thing I've played and it's really hard to go back to old 7 now.
Did think of something for this Vincent thing though if it's possible. Would it be possible to create a Materia that just gives the attack command as if it was a command materia like the others? Vincent does kind of have Protomateria built into him as lore which could sort of fit. It would seem a little silly perhaps since it's a guaranteed used slot on him and only effective if he's saving Limits for something. Just a thought though I'm curious if that sort of Materia could work. Thinking on it it'd be nice on multiple characters if you wanted to save limits and MP for certain fights.
Keep up the good work man, hands down the most refreshing thing I've played and it's really hard to go back to old 7 now.
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Robo Jesus
Guest
Interesting, and informative!
The "Set #2" Rank up for Vincent highly benefits physical damage builds, but hmm. I guess I have two questions then, both tied into eachother.
If you were to mess with the the level gauge like that (and in doing so make the 4th limit break a naturally learnable one), would the "Chaos" item that gives the limit break still work? And if so, the second question is can you alter the number of enemies needed for learning the fourth limit? Because it seems that if both of the answers to these questions are 'yes', you could set up "Chaos" to be learnt either after having Vincent kill the max number of creatures the kill count goes to, or just using the item like 'normal'.
That in turn would mean that even though it becomes 'technically feasible' for a player to 'naturally learn' Chaos, in reality the kill count needed being so extremely high makes it all but impossible. :shrugs:
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Sega Chief
Guest
I dunno if it is; Attack occupies a certain slot on the menu and Limit overrides it.
The game has no kill check for Limit Level 4, but if I went this route I'd be putting Chaos onto the lower Limit levels where it could be learned just like any other limit and remove the Chaos item. It'd likely look like this:
Limit Level 1: Galian Beast & Gigas
Limit Level 2: Hellmasker & Chaos
Limit Level 3: Dummy Command (with name '[No Limit]'; if filled by an effect like Fury Brand and used, the gauge depletes and no action is taken)
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Robo Jesus
Guest
Ahh, I see now. Hmm. A bit different than what I was initially thinking. Still, that does clear up some confusion. I wonder, could you tie the '[No Limit]' to each limit instead? Like this maybe?
Limit Level 1: Galian Beast
-Limit Level 1a: [No Limit]
Limit Level 2: Gigas
-Limit Level 2a: [No Limit]
Limit Level 3: Hellmasker
-Limit Level 3a: [No Limit]
Limit Level 4: Chaos
Would that sort of setup be feasible?
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RecklessPrudence
Guest
I think the problem with that is that the Attack command would still get replaced with Limit, since the non-[No Limit] option is still available. And if [No Limit] was basically just an attack command that reset your Limit gauge, it's conceivable that setting Vincent to Limit Tier 1, using him as normal until the Limit gauge fills, then using that faster-than-Hasted ATB fill after a character reaches their Limit to get an extra turn in, and then resetting his gauge and going as normal until it fills again, getting the fast one-two Vincent turn, then resetting... Especially if the reason to give Vincent a [No Limit] is to allow building him for his attacks, so Vincent repeatedly gets 'free' ATB fills and attacks anyway with them...
Setting [No Limit] as a seperate tier would potentially allow for Vincent's gauge to never fill, and if it doesn't, setting it as Tier 3 would allow for the most time between the free ATB fills without locking it behind a Tier 4 item.
Just a thought, it's after 3am local, so I might not be thinking as clearly as I think I am, so it may make no sense.
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Robo Jesus
Guest
Interesting, and I'm glad you pointed that out.
I was thinking of the [No Limit] option doing something 'normal' like a regular attack or defense option for that turn, so the implications for how to abuse it like that had slipped me by. In those contexts, having it just normally "Attack" would have to be nixed. Out of curiousity, what do you think about having it 'defend' and automatically making him 'Sad'? Would that be abusable in your opinion?
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RecklessPrudence
Guest
Heh. Now's when I admit I haven't actually played your mod yet, just been eyeing it off - I haven't played FFVII since I had it on PS1, and I'm on my first playthrough since then now, with just graphical upgrades and minor tweaks. Considering whether to finish that, or wait for New Threat 1.5 and play that. So I can't really speak too much to balance.
Putting it as a Tier 3 isn't that abusable, I don't think - way less than allowing it as an option at Tier 1, simply because of how much more it takes to fill a Tier 3 guage. I don't know much about how far you can get into VII's workings, but could you up how much Vincent's Level 3 gauge needs to fill, without upping anyone else's? Or were they smart, and linked them all to the one variable? It's probably not possible to have Vincent not empty his guage...
Idea! Is it possible to make a new form for Vincent, one that doesn't steal control from the player? If that's possible, would it be at all possible to have said new form 'set' at the start of each battle, as a duplicate of the current Vincent build? So since he's in a 'Beast form', Vincent's Beast forms dont' have Limit bars, right? Or is losing control built in to how Vincent's Limits work, too?
Hm. If that doesn't work, and assuming you can't replace the Chaos item with an item that teaches a Tier 4 [No Limit], without requiring Vincent to know all his limits prior to that, and put it in the player's inventory when they get him out of the coffin... maybe bumping every limit but the existing Tier 1 down a notch, so Chaos is the Tier 3, and putting the [No Limit]-teaching item as the Tier 4 unlock, representing him mastering himself or something? Leaves the player still able to get a little extra speed out of him, but it's a Tier 4 gauge fill, not a Tier 1.
Hm. Again. Setting your Tier resets your gauge to zero, even if you set it to the same tier. Could you hang a hook so that when Vincent's gauge reaches just short of filling on the [No Limit] tier, whether that be 3 or 4, it uses the normal set-tier functionality the game already has, so Vincent never reaches his Limit? And dress it up in some lore about him mastering the Beast inside, but in doing so having to give up his Limit, as the necessary control, hard-won through meditation and stuff, precludes him from building up the [whatever] that allows for Limits?
Sorry. Llike I said, I'm not sure of how much you can do with VII's internals, so none of my ideas may work. I'm... cautiously optimistic? the last one might, though.
Putting it as a Tier 3 isn't that abusable, I don't think - way less than allowing it as an option at Tier 1, simply because of how much more it takes to fill a Tier 3 guage. I don't know much about how far you can get into VII's workings, but could you up how much Vincent's Level 3 gauge needs to fill, without upping anyone else's? Or were they smart, and linked them all to the one variable? It's probably not possible to have Vincent not empty his guage...
Idea! Is it possible to make a new form for Vincent, one that doesn't steal control from the player? If that's possible, would it be at all possible to have said new form 'set' at the start of each battle, as a duplicate of the current Vincent build? So since he's in a 'Beast form', Vincent's Beast forms dont' have Limit bars, right? Or is losing control built in to how Vincent's Limits work, too?
Hm. If that doesn't work, and assuming you can't replace the Chaos item with an item that teaches a Tier 4 [No Limit], without requiring Vincent to know all his limits prior to that, and put it in the player's inventory when they get him out of the coffin... maybe bumping every limit but the existing Tier 1 down a notch, so Chaos is the Tier 3, and putting the [No Limit]-teaching item as the Tier 4 unlock, representing him mastering himself or something? Leaves the player still able to get a little extra speed out of him, but it's a Tier 4 gauge fill, not a Tier 1.
Hm. Again. Setting your Tier resets your gauge to zero, even if you set it to the same tier. Could you hang a hook so that when Vincent's gauge reaches just short of filling on the [No Limit] tier, whether that be 3 or 4, it uses the normal set-tier functionality the game already has, so Vincent never reaches his Limit? And dress it up in some lore about him mastering the Beast inside, but in doing so having to give up his Limit, as the necessary control, hard-won through meditation and stuff, precludes him from building up the [whatever] that allows for Limits?
Sorry. Llike I said, I'm not sure of how much you can do with VII's internals, so none of my ideas may work. I'm... cautiously optimistic? the last one might, though.
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ManInBlack
Guest
Hey there, I've been interested in playing this mod and triply interested after watching dozens of hours of 4-8Productions on Youtube playing it. I'm getting started now and the reason I'm posting is because I thought I saw a mention somewhere that there was a list of what mods are compatible with New Threat; I don't want to install a graphical update that conflicts with the custom sprites in this mod or something of that nature. I looked through the readme and I couldn't find anything like that, so I figured it was best to ask on here.
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strife98
Guest
I posted this earlier, but I'll post it again:
If you are using 7th Heaven v1.54's Gameplay - Difficulty and Story New Threat selection (which is the current one as of today)
Here's the list of mods that I use while playing: (and the order they should be in on 7th Heaven)
Team Avalanche Fields
Battle Models - Weapons
Field Models - Objects
Animations
Battle Textures
Field Textures - satsuki
Gameplay - Difficulty and Story |The current version of this mod doesn't seem to have the latest New Threat as while playing through I noticed it didn't have the ability to reset Tifa's Lvl 4 Limit Break
Quest like the latest Iro for New Threat. I think you'd put the New Threat Iro here as well, but it also prevents other mods from working so I might be wrong. Either
deal with the older New Threat, figure out where the New Threat Iro goes, or wait till it updates. Though EQ2Alyza would know better than me since I've had to get
help over 7th heaven not working cause of super simple problems and my own ineptitude.
Gameplay - Tweaks and Cheats
Media - Movies
Media - Music and Sound
Menu - Avatars and Backdrops
Minigames Collection
Spell Textures
The Reunion - Beacause and Menu Overhaul (don't use Beacaus, I don't think it's compatible and will over write some stuff)
World Models - Characters
World Models - Enemies
World Models - Vehicles
World Textures
If any of the other info is wrong lemme know and I'll fix it, but this is what I play with, and I think thats all the mods on the Catalog that are compatible. There might be a few I missed, but I'm pretty sure these are all of them. Stuff like Field Textures are interchangeable while otherslike Dynamic Cloud Weapons won't work cause Cloud has a custom model from New Threat and that interferes with the needed model in Dynamic Cloud WeaponsI actually remember why I don't use the mods that change character field models. It's because the custom models that are default in the mod don't get changed by stuff like PRP so they still have the Chibi look. Running around and seeing polygonal chibi's while you look like a semi normal person really pulls you out of the immersion.
It just looks wrong.
Course I haven't tested this out in a while. So I might be wrong, but this list of mods is a good starting point me thinks. Again, if any of this is wrong and I'm completely ruining everything lemme know and I'll fix it.
If you downloaded the latest IRO (which is FF7 NT Iro 14th April 2017 as of today)
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