ATTN Seifer Almasy

[DLPB_]

You see you are basic.....  he has brought you back.  by starting this thread.  Do you even have a brain?

 

[V]

He didn't bring us back by starting this thread. None of us had the faintest idea this thread even existed until guitar_dudester91 posted notifying us that this thread existed.

However, blaming either of them for bringing us back is allocating blame erroneously, since had you not been posting in such a transparently dramatic manner there would have been no incentive for any of us to come back here and engage you in confrontation. The only person you have to blame for that is yourself.

 

[MrAdults]

Surely, if you're going to blame someone, you should at least blame the person who notified us that you still haven't learned how to conduct yourself on the internet.

In all fairness, almost no one in this thread has demonstrated such an ability.

Seifer, I would certainly recommend no longer replying in this thread, or any other directly antagonizing threads. It only gives others more of a delusional "moral high ground", and this isn't a situation you can come out on top of in the eyes of those who are against you. The rest of us have no interest in who is right or wrong, in whatever has transpired to lead to this blatantly mindless thread's creation. At this point, both parties are beyond wrong.

On a side note, I'm disappointed in the personal character of any mod/admin that has come and gone without addressing this thread. We don't need a place with real creative projects and collaborations being sullied by 4chan behavior. 1 thread is fine, certainly - it's passively encouraging this behavior that is unacceptable.

 

[V]

My initial post in this thread was an attempt to help Seifer defuse the amount of antagonism he has to face, but seeing as he responded to that by insulting me I now have no interest in this particular exchange beyond pointing out his rank hypocrisy. I hardly see how pointing out hypocrisy equates to "not knowing how to conduct oneself on the internet."

 

[MrAdults]

You should know better than that, V. When someone is being antagonized, and you come in with a statement along the lines of "You know x was only trying to keep you from looking like a <derogitory term>, right?", that is, of course, adding fuel to the fire. It does not matter in such a climate if that person is right or wrong, if the situation has degenerated to a level where that person is already viciously defending themselves.

Correctly conducting oneself, on the internet or not, requires some level of social sensibiliy, and an ability to evaluate the social environment before entering into a "conversation". Most importantly, it requires a sense of what is socially and personally productive, and what isn't.

That said, do notice I said "almsot no one", as opposed to "no one".

 

[V]

How was he being antagonised at all by Ryu's post? Or for that matter, the majority of posts in this thread? As far as I'm aware the only people who can be considered to have "antagonised" him at all are Ammo and guitar_duedester, at least if "antagonised" means anything more severe than "disagreeing with", and even then, Ammo is mostly just responding to Seifer's insults.

Seifer has said much worse about other people, so I assumed he was capable of taking a simple statement (that he was acting like a knob) in stride. Maybe I was naïve to assume that - actually, after reviewing the entirety of this thread, I almost certainly was. But still, pointing out that good advice is good advice shouldn't be construed as "antagonism."

 

[MrAdults]

I don't think you believe most of that. The correct thing to say was "Ryu was only trying to help you out there, Seifer" if you really felt the need to contribute anything so blatant. Seifer is most likely aware of that, but he's been driven into a corner by this other nonsense, so naturally he is going to take a defensive (which often means offensive as the defensive) posture.

I think what you may be doing here is pretending to be naive of certain social sensibilities, in the hope that others won't call them out. But if you aren't doing that, I do encourage you to think more about the actual social circumstances here, and why piling more insults on top of Seifer was not the right thing to do. Of course, I don't mean to single you out at all. Your contributions to this thread are nothing compared to some of the genuinely childish posts here.

Should you wish to actually pursue a debate here on social rights and wrongs, do feel free to PM me, as I have no interest in further contributing to this trainwreck, but I do have interest in genuinely helping others expand their views.

 

[V]

Why is it natural for him to be defensive? He could just admit that yes, he's been overly quick to react, that yes, he's done a lot of the stuff he's accused others of doing, that yes, he hasn't always thought things through. In fact, if he admitted those things, all the problems he is currently facing will go away.

I will be the first to admit that I could have phrased my opening post more politely, but if he requires politeness before he is willing to listen to others, then the underlying problem with which he has not yet dealt will not have been solved. Most of the posts in here are not flames. They may be a little bit blunt but most of them stop shy of personal insults; they remain simple denunciations of specific actions, which are not the same thing as personal insults at all.

And dismissing posts as "childish" just because they aren't phrased particularly politely doesn't speak particularly well of your attitude either.

 

[obesebear]

I think this is over now, at least for a few weeks; Seifer seems to have left for his own forum.  

Nothing against him, but once the problems began at the lifestream forums, that's when all the "chan" behavior began occurring here.  

Now hopefully he does decide to return here as he does have a lot he could contribute, and maybe he will have taken Ryushikaze's advice on ignoring all the "antagonists".  Surely anyone with a younger brother or sister has learned this already (4yr younger sister and 6yr younger brother)  

 

[guitar_dudester91]

Ummm well Its true I brought them back. Because it was just soooo much fun to see Seifer flop around like a fish out of water!  :-D

Umm I wasn't an asshole, and I didn't start this. I gave him criticism on a certain project, and I don't feel I was an asshole about it. It is the same situation that happened at TLF. So if he can't accept someone's criticism, or the popular vote, then that's his problem. Sure I antagonized him after that, but I'd like to think it was severe disagreement, like V said.

MrAdults, posting in this thread alone is enough to show your chosen side, especially after saying your piece to V alone, not Seifer too.

I'm happy he finally came through on his threats to go back to his own forum, but I highly doubt that he will never return.

Its a pity that he never took Amoo up on his offer 

 

[MrAdults]

My "side" is the organic result of my better judgment, as I have no personal allegiance to anyone on this forum. The only person here that I perhaps know well enough to consider a personal friend would be koral. I do have respect and fondness of the forums themselves, however, because they have hosted many admirable engineering and creative projects over their many years. So please try to avoid making a mockery of them, and driving off members that actually do something for the community, simply for your own ego satisfaction.

On the note of childishness, I'm not entirely fond of misdirection, so I might as well point it out - I never even implied that Ryu's post was antagonistic, or that a lack of polite form indicated a post was "childish". What does indicate such, among many things, is a blatant lack of consideration for the implications or effect of one's post in any conversation.

In short to sum up my actual feelings on the matter (from elsewhere):

These people are very slippery and easy to be antagonized by if you don't recognize their petty tactics, so I really can't totally blame Seifer. He's probably learned a lesson from it, but such lessons can be learned in a far more civil manner, so I see no truly viable justification for the attackers in that thread.

...

I have no doubt that if Seifer had taken the high road and not responded here, they would have continued following him around antagonizing him in every thread, which was having visible effects on how irritable he was with other members. To which I can also not wholly blame him - he was feeling a desperate need to prove himself after being repeatedly shat upon by this mob.

And there you have it. Accuse me of choosing sides or having a terrible personality all you want, but I've formed my opinions through purely unbiased observations, in relation to any individual's position. And really, you summed up the most socially reprehensible aspect of this thread yourself, guitar_dudester91:

Because it was just soooo much fun to see Seifer flop around like a fish out of water!  :-D

This is the thinking of many here, they just aren't quite so honest in saying it outright, for which I mildly commend you.

 

[The Seer of Shadows]

That was very well said.

 

[V]

On the note of childishness, I'm not entirely fond of misdirection, so I might as well point it out - I never even implied that Ryu's post was antagonistic, or that a lack of polite form indicated a post was "childish". What does indicate such, among many things, is a blatant lack of consideration for the implications or effect of one's post in any conversation.

On the note of childishness, I'm not entirely fond of misdirection, so I might as well point it out - I never even implied that you implied that Ryu's post was antagonistic, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to respond as though I, or anyone else for that matter, had accused you of saying otherwise. You did dismiss the majority of posts in this thread as "childish" shortly after you criticised me for not being perfectly polite in my opening response to Seifer, so I presumed the charges were related; I apologise for making the assumption. In any case, tell me, what in any of Bandito's posts in this thread is a "personal attack", as you have claimed elsewhere in the thread? He opened this thread by pointing out statements Seifer made and suggesting that he should back those statements up in real life. How is that a personal attack, or for that matter, even particularly antagonistic? Seifer has responded to this by flaming him in virtually every post he has made in this thread, ironically while accusing Bandito of "flaming." The vast majority of what Bandito has done in response has been to turn most of Seifer's statements in on themselves, and in some cases he has actually given him some genuinely helpful advice that, if followed, would have saved a Seifer a lot of grief ("grow a pair," "If you do not want people to see a statement of yours, DO NOT POST IT"). Again, I do not see this as particularly antagonistic. So who exactly is being "childish"? Seifer could just abstain from posting in this thread if he wanted to, or he could simply have politely declined the offer, both of which would have provided Bandito with absolutely no ammunition for an argument and thereby saved Seifer a lot of grief.

Moreover, just because a post is not phrased as politely as possible, as many others in this thread are not, does not mean that it is created with "a blatant lack of consideration for the implications or effect" it may have. Should people be required to tiptoe around expressing themselves just because a poster has shown himself or herself to be incapable of taking criticism? There's no rule on the internet sparing people's feelings. Indeed, sometimes causing offence is the best way to induce a positive change in another individual. Certainly, if it is done often enough for precisely the same reason, an intelligent individual will be able to see the common thread in cases in which he is offended. There is a very common trend in the exchanges in which I have seen Seifer participate: someone disagrees with him; he takes offence and begins to hurl insults; he is both mocked and presented with serious advice for doing so; he responds to both with further insults; repeat cycle until he feels need to leave forum. This is effectively how it proceeded on TLS, and it appears to be how it proceeded here (although I have admittedly not read all posts in this thread). Life essentially presents us with the same lesson repeatedly until we learn from it. At some point Seifer is going to have to learn deal with honest disagreement, or even a fair bit of mockery, without utterly blowing up as he has done here in thread after thread here. I only learnt to deal with such matters through a process of baptism by fire on the Internet; thus I cannot see antics like the ones in this thread as particularly harmful in the long term.

That said, I don't doubt that Bandito almost certainly doesn't have such noble goals in mind with his posts; he had seen little reason to believe that Seifer would respond to this thread by doing anything other than flaming him and demanding his removal, as he predictably did. But how is he being the "childish" one here by laughing at Seifer's constant temper tantrums or giving Seifer the genuinely helpful advice to "grow a pair"? You stated in your OP that he was likely to become an "anti-social, delusional sociopath" if people continued laughing at such behaviour from him. Don't you think you might be engaging in the slippery slope fallacy, or that that's a little harsh? Bandito seems intelligent enough to be able to tell the difference between laughing at someone's constant temper tantrums on the internet and the behaviour of a remorseless socipoath. Why does he have a social responsibility to treat Seifer politely in the off-topic forum, where Seifer can just ignore it?

In short to sum up my actual feelings on the matter (from elsewhere):

These people are very slippery and easy to be antagonized by if you don't recognize their petty tactics, so I really can't totally blame Seifer. He's probably learned a lesson from it, but such lessons can be learned in a far more civil manner, so I see no truly viable justification for the attackers in that thread.

I have no doubt that if Seifer had taken the high road and not responded here, they would have continued following him around antagonizing him in every thread, which was having visible effects on how irritable he was with other members. To which I can also not wholly blame him - he was feeling a desperate need to prove himself after being repeatedly shat upon by this mob.

I'm fairly certain he hasn't learned a lesson at all, since as far as I am aware he has accepted no responsibility for engaging in precisely the kind of behaviour for which he has criticised others. He could easily have defused this entire situation by admitting that he overreacted in various threads and that he had often done things which he had criticised others for doing. Had he done that, I am thoroughly convinced that the vast majority of people who have been criticising him would have accepted that there was little chance of further manipulation resulting in the desired response, and therefore would have simply given up responding to him.

You speculate that people "would have continued following him around antagonizing him in every thread," yet fail to provide a single example of this alleged antagonism. I have reviewed most of Bandito's posts toward Seifer in the last several weeks, and the vast majority are considerably less antagonistic than any post in this thread, and simply consist of him rebutting his points. There are a few that could be considered as questionable, but Seifer has rebutted to Bandito with language at least as severe, so I can see no particular grievous offence in these cases. guitar_dudester you might have a point with, but seriously, one person is not a "mob," as you claimed in the quoted section and have claimed elsewhere in this thread. I can't even find anyone else who posted anything questionable in this thread and also posted between the two times this place has been linked on TLS. Perhaps there are users I am simply unaware of whose post history I have not searched, but in any case I am simply responding to the evidence which I have reviewed.

In summary, what I take issue with in all of your above characterisations, and the primary reason I have written such a lengthy rebuttal, is your implication that people are being in any way "childish" by responding to Seifer's constant flaming with anything other than politeness, or that "almost no one in this thread has demonstrated" the ability "to conduct [themselves] on the internet." Certainly it is not nice for people to respond to his poorly conceived arguments by mocking them, but as far as I'm aware there's no rule that people have to be nice here; just that they have to refrain from flaming, which the vast majority of responses in this thread have done by every operative definition with which I'm familiar. It may be regrettable if Seifer chooses to leave the forum because he feels he has been unfairly treated in this thread and elsewhere; however, in taking offence at behaviours in which he himself has engaged on numerous counts all across this forum, he is the only one whom I can consider to have been behaving "childishly." Certainly, you can feel free to criticise Bandito and others for driving him off when this is a forum primarily presented to hacking projects. However, that is not what you have done here; you have directly insulted their maturity instead. I find this to be highly questionable.

edit: I should add that, on rereading this thread further, I suspect we may have completely different operational definitions of the word "antagonistic."

 

[MrAdults]

What you say I imply is not at all what I imply. Whether this is intentional misdirection, or due to the way you've chosen to interpret my words, I cannot say. What I can say, is that it's a ridiculous cause to attempt to defend the maturity of the attackers in this thread, least of all Bandito. If you click back to page 1, there, you'll notice he's initiating a charade toward Seifer with the mock goal to engage him in physical combat, not to mention all of the aggressive undertones sprinkled in the posts preceding and inside of this thread. I have not insulted his Bandito's maturity in any way, however - I have pointed out that there is a distinct lack of maturity in his behavior, at least as seen in this thread.

Should you find the nature of such a thread mature, you have a great deal of growth to accomplish. For that, I do not fault you, but others should not have to suffer because you, or anyone else, has not yet realized the true nature of social courtesy. Such a simple, fundamental axiom applies here: "Two wrongs don't make a right".

Disagreements will always be made, and conflicts will happen, but this thread, or anything like it, should never be the end result.

 

[Otokoshi]

To be fair, the thread was titled "ATTN Seifer Almasy" for a reason.  Numerous times the user has stated acts of violence or wishing the demise of another forum member.  I guess this could have gone to a PM war, but putting those disturbing posts in a public forum, I don't blame the other for wanting to air out the dirty laundry.  If members don't like it, take a look again at the thread title.  If you want to pop a bag of popcorn and enjoy the fireworks, go at it.  Cutting into an argument with those that can speak for themselves, telling them to stop, stating your allegiance (or lack thereof), their feelings on the matter, or their own moral polarity on teh intern3ts is simply unwarranted.  You want to point out hypocrisy made by one, fine they did make the argument public.  If it's between two people let their discussion/argument run its course.  Don't have a moderator step into a topic posted in Completely Unrelated that has the attention for one member in its subject line.  What does that solve?  Who wants a censored forum?  If the mob had left the thread between the two, it may not have escalated as it did.  Seifer could have made a dozen more threats then left, but we'll never know, it could have ended better.

If you click back to page 1, there, you'll notice he's initiating a charade toward Seifer with the mock goal to engage him in physical combat, not to mention all of the aggressive undertones sprinkled in the posts preceding and inside of this thread. I have not insulted his Bandito's maturity in any way, however - I have pointed out that there is a distinct lack of maturity in his behavior, at least as seen in this thread.

He was responding to the post previously made by Seifer Almasy.  I would say the duel was just a witty response to an empty threat.

Should you find the nature of such a thread mature, you have a great deal of growth to accomplish. For that, I do not fault you, but others should not have to suffer because you, or anyone else, has not yet realized the true nature of social courtesy. Such a simple, fundamental axiom applies here: "Two wrongs don't make a right".

There's another good one: "Mind your own business."

Disagreements will always be made, and conflicts will happen, but this thread, or anything like it, should never be the end result.

Please read the thread title again.

 

[V]

What you say I imply is not at all what I imply. Whether this is intentional misdirection, or due to the way you've chosen to interpret my words, I cannot say. What I can say, is that it's a ridiculous cause to attempt to defend the maturity of the attackers in this thread, least of all Bandito. If you click back to page 1, there, you'll notice he's initiating a charade toward Seifer with the mock goal to engage him in physical combat, not to mention all of the aggressive undertones sprinkled in the posts preceding and inside of this thread. I have not insulted his Bandito's maturity in any way, however - I have pointed out that there is a distinct lack of maturity in his behavior, at least as seen in this thread.

Should you find the nature of such a thread mature, you have a great deal of growth to accomplish. For that, I do not fault you, but others should not have to suffer because you, or anyone else, has not yet realized the true nature of social courtesy. Such a simple, fundamental axiom applies here: "Two wrongs don't make a right".

Disagreements will always be made, and conflicts will happen, but this thread, or anything like it, should never be the end result.

What you say I imply is not at all what I imply. Whether this is intentional misdirection, or due to the way you've chosen to interpret my words, I cannot say.

(Incidentally, I apparently misinterpreted yours; perhaps I read too much subtext into your responses).

I have never said Bandito, or indeed anything in this thread, was perfectly mature. The "perfectly mature" thing would be to keep reminding Seifer that his temper is simply digging him into further holes, or simply to abstain from commenting at all. However, the "perfectly mature" action does not always bring the kind of self-reflection necessary for a true personality change. We can tell Seifer to get a hold of his temper as much as we want, but no matter how often we tell him to do so, this will not make him realise his faults if he is unwilling to admit they exist. As I said, I went through a very similar sequence of actions on another message board long ago; what ultimately drove me to the realisation was that I was suffering the same kind of abuses at the hands of others as a direct result of my own actions. It was only after a period of particularly severe abuses that I finally came to this realisation; had I not received those abuses, I would never have undergone the period of self-reflection necessary for me to learn this lesson. As a result, I am actually grateful to the people whose "childish" actions eventually forced me to this realisation.

No, the term of yours with which I brooked disagreement was "childish," because of its absurd severity; it implies the behaviour of a six-year-old, which is naturally overcome with age. Clearly this is not the case, as anyone will be able to determine by simply observing the world in which we live, rife as it is with all kinds of absurd intrigue that make the behaviours in this thread look downright civilised. It is "childish" to sleep with a teddy bear; it is not "childish" to engage in behaviours which are carried out by humans of all ages. Grossly destructive? Often. Lacking in warmth? Probably. Bullying? Maybe. Childish? No.

My disagreement with your posts has nothing to do with the fact that I "have not yet realised the true nature of social courtesy," and I find your implication that I have not to be particularly insulting coming from someone who presumes such an advanced degree of compassion for others. I simply feel that a society in which everyone feels the necessity to tiptoe around offending one another to be completely anathematical to my principles; it reeks of the absurd kind of political correctness that gets people censured for using "man" rather than "person" as a job description.

Your assertion that "others should not have to suffer" is naïve at best. Suffering is, more often than not, what brings personal growth. I am not saying that suffering should be deliberately inflicted in all cases, but I am saying that its infliction is not in all cases socially destructive. Sometimes it's actually necessary.

That said, of course there's no guarantee that Bandito will respond to his treatment here by learning the lesson he so urgently needs to learn. But there's no social responsibility on anyone here to treat him with kid gloves just because he apparently has a lot of growth to do.

 

[MrAdults]

There's another good one: "Mind your own business."

A post centered around telling me that the subject is none of my business, in a thread completely unrelated to yourself - while I don't generally agree with the notions you assert, it seems difficult to miss the gross hypocrisy, if you hold these beliefs.

V, you can drag this into a massive debate on human philosophy, but that's another form of misdirection. If you have to take something this far to justify the antisocial, immature behavior exhibited in the thread to begin with, it seems to completely defeat the point, and simply produces more angry flailing in the wind.

Indeed, the conflict should have been between two people - this thread was in response to threats of violence from Seifer, which was in response to Bandito pissing him off, which was in response to Seifer's attitude over something or other. Like I said, both sides are wrong, two wrongs don't make a right, and so forth - in the end the behavior in this thread is still not justified. And, yes, calling someone out in a thread like this is childish, especially in making a public display out of it. Perhaps not on the level of a 6 year old, but it's definitely something a 12-16 year old would do. Perhaps we should start a debate on when a person stops being considered a child, and how childish might apply in a metaphorical sense. Or perhaps there's no getting through to the aggressors in this thread, which is partly why Seifer is gone - but I trust the rest of us appreciate the truth of what's happened here, and I hope the mods/admins take a more aggressive stance on nipping these things in the bud in the future.

That's the end of the subject for me. Feel free to irrationally justify your behavior and make aggressive statements against me henceforth, though I warn you that I cannot be your new Seifer.

 

[HeWhoWas]

Everyone else beside MrAdults: Eat all the dicks.

 

[V]

V, you can drag this into a massive debate on human philosophy, but that's another form of misdirection. If you have to take something this far to justify the antisocial, immature behavior exhibited in the thread to begin with, it seems to completely defeat the point, and simply produces more angry flailing in the wind.

How is pointing out that growth comes from suffering a form of misdirection? I explicitly said the behaviour wasn't "mature", so I don't see how I'm misdirecting anything. My point is that getting as worked up over it as you are, or this guy:

Everyone else beside MrAdults: Eat all the dicks.

has been, is pretty absurd. And no, calling someone out on their threats of violence or laughing at their constant bouts of anger is not "antisocial." It's what most human beings would do in a similar situation. Maybe most of them wouldn't make a thread about it in public, but they'd respond to the threats in private or request for a staff member to deal with the problem. Bandito simply chose to take the approach he felt was likely to generate the most humour.

Indeed, the conflict should have been between two people - this thread was in response to threats of violence from Seifer, which was in response to Bandito pissing him off, which was in response to Seifer's attitude over something or other. Like I said, both sides are wrong, two wrongs don't make a right, and so forth - in the end the behavior in this thread is still not justified. And, yes, calling someone out in a thread like this is childish, especially in making a public display out of it. Perhaps not on the level of a 6 year old, but it's definitely something a 12-16 year old would do.

I thought this was essentially a semantic argument, but apparently not. There are constant cases of people who were much older calling out actual threats in person. I believe people such as Alexander Hamilton and Alexander Pushkin have died as a result of them. It's the sort of thing people of all ages do; most people only "outgrow" it if they become pacifists or are so naturally submissive that they simply don't bother to respond to provocation, though most people won't take it as far as an actual gunfights because when push comes to shove, most people don't mean what they say.

Or perhaps there's no getting through to the aggressors in this thread, which is partly why Seifer is gone - but I trust the rest of us appreciate the truth of what's happened here, and I hope the mods/admins take a more aggressive stance on nipping these things in the bud in the future.

Should it really be the responsibility of mods/admins to cater to the whims of emotionally unstable people such as Seifer, even if they are contributing to hacking projects? As someone who's managed countless internets communities throughout the years, my experience is that catering to the whims of the emotionally unstable just results in the entire community being run according to the whims of the emotionally unstable. The mods could ban Bandito just because Seifer and a couple of others have a problem with him, but where does it stop? Do they ban everyone whom Seifer has a disagreement with? The thought is absurd. Alternatively, they could close threads like this one, but that would only direct the conversation elsewhere. Certainly a revision of the rules can be made, but any alteration of the rules that would prevent someone from making a thread calling someone out over their constant threats of violence seems to me so draconian as to forbid the creation of any thread that might even potentially offend someone. Maybe you have some ideas for more constructive rules, but from the way you've been ranting about other people's conduct throughout this entire thread, it sounds to me like you want politeness to be enforced.

Feel free to irrationally justify your behavior and make aggressive statements against me henceforth

lol, and where have I been doing that?

 

[HeWhoWas]

By not respond to and/or ignoring this post you are hereby agreeing that you do indeed eat all the dicks.

On a side note, Cassandra Leo, I feel that Skrewdriver is an overrated artist, that anyone who claims to be an anarchist is retarded and that your managing of internet communtities isn't anything to boast about. If you've dedicated that much of your life to it by the time you're 25, you should probably re-evaluate your life decisions.

Furthermore, if you look closely at what MrAdults was saying and how it was being presented, you've become the victim of a very clever troll. And the age range that was presented was mocking you, not to be taken seriously as you have done.

I know for a fact that he is giggling at your child like justifications, and the very fact that you feel you must attempt them.