Break 255 MP cost

[Tenko Kuugen]

What about the attacks 123-127? It seems they are unused as well. So, you might have enough custom effects to be triggered.

On the other hand, if you still intend to do handle the MP issue via character AI, I am wondering what is supposed to happen in case the amount of MP is insufficient for a spell. Have a message show up and end the turn?

Kill the character from Mental Overexhaustion "Mental Destruction" displays and the character drops dead.


@Jenova

Do enemies have the same limits player characters have, in terms of max stats?  Do/Can enemies and PCs use the same damage formulas, in their attacks (enemy->player attacks aren't multiplied by 10 or something)?

Magic used by enemies is pulled from the kernel. Enemies have 30,000 MP limits and many enemy attacks use a lot of MP so I'd have to edit ALL of those too. The damage types and algorhythms are the same no matter who attacks.

Yeah, you'd have to redo all the stats and spells for enemies too, along with PCs.
So me telling someone else a alternate way to do something, and offering some help, instead of just going, "lol learn asm", makes me lazy?  Then how do you define lazy - a response that you don't like, maybe?  Would you rather I ignore your topics in the future?

This is not an alternate way to do X. This is a DIFFERENT way to do something like X. Vastly differently things. And offering help? The work would still be all his / my own. And it seems lazy because I see this kind of response, in various states of elaborate wording but essentially being the same at the core, practically every time something like this comes up.

1. Break your MP limit, by adding another byte or nibble (actually only two more bits, but good luck finding room for them, and for the optimized routine - though I wonder if you could use a few bits from HP?) to player character MP.

See NFITC1's post about this not being propable.

2. Figure out what the proportions to your spells are (hint: don't do it manually, dump the game data to a spreadsheet and automate it) and reduce the mp cost -> damage multiplier proportions, along with stat growth, and enemy stats.

Growth Curves are much more complex than that. And dumping all that attack data to a spreadhseet and then automating it? I'll be half done doing it manually by the time I worked that out. Please don't throw out "means" to something you don't know well enough.

You are right, though, this is a very tall order, so maybe we need a base patch that keeps the game the same, but simply reduces the proportions to their lowest equivalent values.

I won't bother making a patch like this and likely, nobody else will either. Because there is no real purpose to this. Because it's not that easy.

I'd call it more tedium than actual work, but it can be done.

The same tedious activity is MUCH more actual work than stuff that is actually fun to make, like new events. So if anything, that stuff would be work. real, unsatisfying and annoying, work.

What we really need are planning tools, such as spreadsheets where you can plug in values for the different variables and determine how much damage an attack will do, and what variables and constants will produce certain growths, all for PCs and enemies.

Good luck making those. What we 'need' and what we 'can get' are also vastly different things. Growth Curves are complicated and damage algorhythms rely a lot on different things. You cannot plan "this will do X damage" because of defense, varying stats of the player character and so on.

A set of spreadsheets will do, until someone adds this sort of preview to the game editing programs.

A preview? Of what? Of what a battle will be like? This will NEVER happen.

This is what is done for FFT, over at FFHacktics, so there's no reason not to do it here too.  Maybe we need a thread to go with the previewing spreadsheets, to explain the math behind reducing proportions.

Yes there IS reason we can't do it here. Different mechanics. Different GENRE. Different play style. Different combat system.

You want a Lamp of Wonders. But those don't exist in reality, where my reasoning is grounded.

 

[nfitc1]

How large can you make each characters script before it actually starts to trunc or worse? I assume he won't use much more than maybe 3-6 magics that exceed those MP costs. From what I assume, you'd check on actionindex and crosscheck on self.currentMP?
Is Vincent's the only pre-action script that actually runs?

do you have an idea for how to best structure a script like that?

I have valid, correct, and concise answers to all of these questions. However, the ultimate conclusion is that nothing can really be done. I'll give you a scenario that would prevent this:

Cloud has 300 MP and you want him to cast a spell that costs 350, but the game actually says it costs 255 (because that's the max). Now first of all, the game will allow him to select the attack in the magic menu. There's the first problem right there. It's still highlighted as if it's valid. There is no way around this. Second, an AI script will see the magic you're trying to cast and see that Cloud doesn't have enough MP. Three things happen:
1) He performs it anyway because there's no way to actually stop him
2) Even if you could stop him, the game's mechanics would still subtract the 255 MP
3) Now he's wasted a turn (if you managed to "stop him") and is down 255 MP on an action he never should have taken.
So an AI would have to do this:

If ( character.MP >= [desired MP cost] )
{
    character.MP -= [difference in desired cost vs actual in-game cost]
}
else
{
    [stop from performing] //NO WAY TO DO THIS
    character.MP += [actual in-game cost] //because the mechanics require it be taken before this script would fire
    character.timebar = 255 //to re-grant a turn, but I don't know if this is possible either
}

That's for every magic you want to go over the 255 limit. That shouldn't be much, probably just a few summons and higher-level magic. But like I said before, there's no way to stop Cloud from using it anyway or grant his turn back. The mechanics of the game simply don't allow for an action to be canceled once it's been queued unless the actor dies. Then THAT screws up all the previously attained status effects, especially timed ones.

Ultimately, it's not practical to attempt to do this. It's attempting to alter the mechanics of the game, it lies to the players, and it just can't cleanly be done.

 

[Tenko Kuugen]

Cloud has 300 MP and you want him to cast a spell that costs 350, but the game actually says it costs 255 (because that's the max). Now first of all, the game will allow him to select the attack in the magic menu. There's the first problem right there. It's still highlighted as if it's valid. There is no way around this.

People can attempt to try impossible things in IRL too. This is no problem at all. Since this script would be limited to maximum 5 attacks in the entire game, and you gain them very late, it's fair to expect the player to know their way around the game by then and learn from mistakes.

1) He performs it anyway because there's no way to actually stop him

That's fine. If the consequence of having not enough MP to pay is DEATH, it's not worth it.

2) Even if you could stop him, the game's mechanics would still subtract the 255 MP
3) Now he's wasted a turn (if you managed to "stop him") and is down 255 MP on an action he never should have taken.

Due to what I said above, this becomes irrelevant.

The way I see it now, is to handle the exceed MP cost this way:
If action performed AND self.MP is >= needed amount, then subtract specified MP
If action perfmed AND self.MP is < needed amount, perform actionindex XYZ ( the unused attack I talk about below )

THAT, the above, should be possible, right? It doesn't have to necessarily stop them from trying. They can DIE trying. That's how it makes more sense actually.

so, something like

If ( character.MP >= [desired MP cost] )
{
    character.MP -= [difference in desired cost vs actual in-game cost]
}
else
{
    target.self, execute attack "Mental Destruction" ( there is one unused attack as NxK said and that can be used for animation, MP damage and the display string all in once. )
   
}

 

[Bosola]

Kill the character from Mental Overexhaustion "Mental Destruction" displays and the character drops dead.

Great, but the player has no way of seeing the MP cost before the mana is subtracted. So players will die unexpectedly, which isn't much fun.

Magic used by enemies is pulled from the kernel. Enemies have 30,000 MP limits and many enemy attacks use a lot of MP so I'd have to edit ALL of those too.

It shouldn't be too hard to extract the attack MPs from the SCENE.BIN, do a mass multiplication and reinsert them. You'd have to write your own script for doing it, though.

This is not an alternate way to do X. This is a DIFFERENT way to do something like X. Vastly differently things. And offering help? The work would still be all his / my own. And it seems lazy because I see this kind of response, in various states of elaborate wording but essentially being the same at the core, practically every time something like this comes up.

It's a hack, but we can only do that because the alternative is too arduous. If you feel that strongly about it, why not help us get around these limitations in future by contributing to the Q-Gears codebase?

And asking them to  "design your game around low MP totals" is essentially asking them to design their mod all over. chances are, they'd rather stop development than do that

You shouldn't really be developing a mod before you've scoped out these kinds of constraints.

You want a Lamp of Wonders. But those don't exist in reality, where my reasoning is grounded

Congratulations! You just won 30 warn points for continuing to act abrasively despite being told several times to tone things down! Nice work! Except, not really.

 

[Tenko Kuugen]

Great, but the player has no way of seeing the MP cost before the mana is subtracted. So players will die unexpectedly, which isn't much fun.

Easy way around this is to have some 'rumors' spread by NPCs about this. And the MP cost will always be the same so it's a matter of "remember 2 to 5 values for these spells you will be using a lot to avoid dying". Not to mention that there are much more nasty surprises than that.

It shouldn't be too hard to extract the attack MPs from the SCENE.BIN, do a mass multiplication and reinsert them. You'd have to write your own script for doing it, though.

I have no intention of doing that OR dumping MP cost. It doesn't change my point btw. If anything, it further increments the likelihood of being done halfway while doing it manually instead of learning how to write scripts on top of everything else.

It's a hack, but we can only do that because the alternative is too arduous. If you feel that strongly about it, why not help us get around these limitations in future by contributing to the Q-Gears codebase?

I stick to the things I can realistically do. Coding anything from scratch or helping code something that was made from scratch does not belong to that category. I actually REALLY don't care about Q-Gears too. And the alternative is too arduous? Uh, okay. You must have missed the my post? That AI script shouldn't be too big and it's a lot better than what Jenova suggested. THAT is arduous. Not what I'm trying to do in this case.

You shouldn't really be developing a mod before you've scoped out these kinds of constraints.

I developped my mod with specific growths and values in mind and I got there fine. Adjusting 2 to 5, maximum, spells to have higher MP costs does not change the system of the entire mod's system. Redesigning it for lower MP costs however, does.

 

[Bosola]

Easy way around this is to have some 'rumors' spread by NPCs about this. And the MP cost will always be the same so it's a matter of "remember 2 to 5 values for these spells you will be using a lot to avoid dying". Not to mention that there are much more nasty surprises than that.

True, but I think it could be quite easy to forget these values in the heat of battle. I must admit the 'exhaustion' idea is a nice one, though. Perhaps the penalty could be something other than death, though? Maybe reducing the player's Hero Drink modifier to reduce their stats?

And the alternative is too arduous? Uh, okay. You must have missed the my post? That AI script shouldn't be too big and it's a lot better than what Jenova suggested

The AI script doesn't really work, though. It won't change the MP values displayed in the selection menu and it imposes a nasty cost for exceeding MP limits that most modders probably wouldn't like. The only real way to achieve what the OP wants is by rewriting the way magic is handled, which is... not straightforward.

 

[Tenko Kuugen]

At the point of "It can't be done, not the way OP wants to" we started talking about something else, namely, the things I brought up. So if it works for cloudiar has become irrelevant as of a few posts ago.
I think I need to state that, since you're still talking about that.

True, but I think it could be quite easy to forget these values in the heat of battle.

You can only have 1 of these materia. You will likely want a dedicated Caster like Aerith for them. Unless you're extremely short on MP, the instant death shouldn't become an issue. It can even be used tactically with phoenix pinions or Final Attack. Nightmare ( and OVA is harder difficulty too, but not anywhere close to Nightmare ) is not designed for people who panic easily in battle. and really, once you used the magic a few times, your mind automatically adjust the mp cost to 255 + X

I must admit the 'exhaustion' idea is a nice one, though. Perhaps the penalty could be something other than death, though? Maybe reducing the player's Hero Drink modifier to reduce their stats?

1C and 15 extra effect parameters ( dragon force, hero drink ) are used too widely and reset upon death. And the idea is that if you cast something you don't have enough magic for, essentially your brain short circuits you. death / knockout. I'm still being nice with this. My first draft of this was to have Mental Destruction cause "Remove from battle and cause death".

The AI script doesn't really work, though. It won't change the MP values displayed in the selection menu and it imposes a nasty cost for exceeding MP limits that most modders probably wouldn't like.

I already explained in my post that 'hidden' costs are just another facet in the end. It doesn't matter if it's not displayed correctly. And I don't see what you're talking about with the cost for exceeding MP limits here. As in, I literally can't make sense of what you mean.

The only real way to achieve what the OP wants is by rewriting the way magic is handled, which is... not straightforward.

We both know that won't happen for another decade or so. And that's only if Q-gears is complete then.
As stated above, this has ceased to be just about cloudiar.

 

[nfitc1]

At the point of "It can't be done, not the way OP wants to" we started talking about something else...

At which point this really should have started a new topic. We've answered the OP's question and started talking about your mod. I feel this conversation should be its own thing.

 

[Tenko Kuugen]

It's essentially the same thing, isn't it? Just instead of doing nothing, I want to use a work-around. And instead of making yet another thread ( I must have TWENTY or so already in the gameplay forum ) we can continue here.
Did you read my post where I explained the AI effect I'd want to use after you said the AI as OP needs can't be done?

 

[cloudiar]

OMG!!!

Topic continue with life?

I prefer not to speak very much, the english is bad  :-\

But reading all...Conclusion very very very hard!!!

Some solution like, concretely case of modify IA of player:

If ( character.MP >= [desired MP cost] )
{
    character.MP -= [difference in desired cost vs actual in-game cost]
}
else
{

Become in later post the penalty death is very agressive, other solution can to be assign other effect example "death sentence" x_D

I think the logic it would be apply lose %HP penalty.

 

[Jenova's Witness]

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[Tenko Kuugen]

Man, I almost can't be bothered to quote that now-wall of text. Just gonna pm NFITC1 on this since apparently it's impossible to discuss stuff here.

I still think that, if the damage done is proportionally the same, then the end result is still the same, and lower stat values gives you more freedom to create uber-enemies without having to know asm.

That's what you believe. I like big numbers. So do others. I cater to the people who like the same thing I like. I have no intention of ever changing that.

The work would... what?  What does that mean?  If someone provides a spreadsheet, then you still have to plug your values into the spreadsheet?  Or maybe if someone does the work you still get all the credit?  I don't understand what you're saying here.

The concept of "you do this, I do that, because I know how to do that and you know how to do this" seems to be alien to you.
I'm receiving help from multiple people but you are definitely not among them.

I was trying to imply that you should create a topic and see if someone else was interested.  Since you know so much about the game, then you would be the ideal person to tell others what data they need, and how that data works together, and the other person would then dump and spreadsheet that data, without having to know the context in which it's used (besides what you provide).

Three words: Why would I?
I don't care about this, I'm telling you this for the xth time now. I have absolutely no interest in what you're describing below this.
I don't need spreadsheets. I don't have the time nor the interest to create something entirely unrelated to Nightmare 7. Which this would be. The only thing I need for Nightmare 7 at this point is beta testers, someone who is good with models and texturing and someone really good with AI. No spreadsheets.

All I did see was a person who spurns all offers of help, either through ignorance of what can be done with a spreadsheet, an unrealistically inflated sense of his own abilities, a lack of maturity, or some kind of personality disorder.

I don't need "help" that won't actually "help" me in any way. I want to use the AI script I outlined previously. I asked NFITC1 if it works the way I outlined. That. is. all.

Oh and by the way, I'm asking plenty of people for help and getting it. It's just that what you're offering is not something I need. Nor is what anyone else but NFITC1 offered in this thread.
And, before I forget

so I think you're just trying to get me to shut up, as you have no other way to win an argument.

I don't care about you. In any way, positive or negative. You're a distraction in a thread where I tried to get yet another helpful piece of information from NFITC1. That's all there is to that.

 

[Jenova's Witness]

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[cloudiar]

Jenova's Witness see the website and ... it's impresive!

Very nice ... good work your forum friend, thanks for shared

I try to help the community with some ideas, do not really know a lot of programming, in future I'm sure many will thank contribution.

Always I'm proud of the community, many do an amazing job, people can enjoy the changes and developments.

"Shared" is essential for evolution is true, I support you, but with limits also thinking.


The only thing not to like Is that other person stealing the hard work on the mod (tens of hours, even more), I say steal for a reason, When someone do not ask permission to use a long work in your mod, really sad .

Sometimes I really thinking to cancel the mod, after much time doing work really "personal", and then another day after use without permission.

I am the first to want to share, but not this way.

I say this so that in the future will "protect" the moders work and try to do everything better, probably some may think exactly.

Sorry to say this in here, but to read you and understand something I do think about it, no intention to generalize, it is only a special case, I hope people understand me, I do not want controversy, is only a reflection.

 

[Jenova's Witness]

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[cloudiar]

Jenova's Witness thank you for understand (and understand the english xD)

You said, people can use it, but only one person to understand this rate is sufficient to say  :roll:

A mod is something you made, it is the result of your hard work and creativity, so you should be the person who says what can be done with it.  That's what I was taught, and that's what I teach others.

This is the most interesting reflection I could see, just really think about it, hacking and everything would be better that way.


I do not want anyone to feel offended, just that things can be done differently.

If a member post a project and want to use your content must ask, always, is really logical.

In my case if you ask me, I would certainly help, but take no permissions is really bad.

It is normal to want first all enjoy my work, absolutely.

Maybe first to do completely new scenes, this is precisely the main issue, people do not do that kind of sequences to be really complicated, very long time too, so personal and unique for another use later, without waiting I finish the mod, logical anger.

 

[Tenko Kuugen]

FYI, telling others that you've reported them usually results in a warning for trolling.

I see no mention of anything of the sort here
Do you?

 

[Jenova's Witness]

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[omega res novae]

sorry jenova i think youre in the wrong here. pretty sure he meant hes going to pm nfitc1 to discuss his mod stuff
not to report you

 

[Jenova's Witness]

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