Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)

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Yeah...I used to think like that, too. But, that doesn't explain why Sephiroth is carrying Jenova. As stated by Cloud on the Cargo Ship.

As I said earlier, that part of the script screws up any theories of Jenova in Control. If the headless body in Shinra can change into Sephiroth.... why would Sephiroth be carrying Jenova at any point of the game?

It would make more sense if Sephiroth ripped off his own limbs and left his own body parts behind for Cloud to fight. Especially, if Jenova's Body has changed into the image of Sephiroth.

And what of the reports of a guy with a number 1 tattoo, through out the game. Just about everywhere Cloud goes, there is talk about a guy descrbed as Sephiroth, with a number 1 tattoo getting there before him. Even when he was climbing his way up to Shinra Headquarters, there was dialog of a guy climbing up there before him. Which is also wierd being that the clones seem to be able to fly. And it then contridicts all the guys in black with different tattoo numbers. One that comes to mind is the one you meet at the Ancient Temple. Blabbing about Sephiroth was here. Does that mean it was possessed by Sephiroth and Sephiroth left it...or does it mean the black cloaked guys were following him, just like Cloud was.

And what about the statement, That Sephiroth made, just before Cloud switches sides. "This is the end of this body's usefulness". Since the Cargo ship dialog screws up any Jenova theory....who's body is he speaking of? A clones? And then who is speaking after that? Is it the empty clone speaking? It calls Sephiroth it's Master. And explains that everyone injected with Jenova cells must deliever the Black Materia to him. I doubt it is the same Sephiroth that said, "This is the end of this body's usefulness."

One other thing...why is Sephiroth killing the clones? The place is littered with them....he's killing them all. Wouldn't he need them alive to attract Meteor there? The planet's biggest threat is Jenova. Doesn't make sense that Sephiroth was meteor's target...then how would he absorb the lifestream after being killed by meteor?

Cloud's group moves on.

Sephiroth: This is the end... for all of you.

(Sephiroth slashed away two black figures.)

Cloud: Sephiroth!!

Cid: This is the end!

Sephiroth: You're right. This is the end of this body's usefulness.

Sephiroth disappeared.

Cloud: He disappeared!?

Tifa: He might still be nearby......

???: Our purpose is to deliver the Black Materia to our master.

Cloud: Our...?

Cid: Hey, hey! What's goin' on?

???: Those who carry Jenova's cells...

Cloud: Master...!?

???: Of course... Sephiroth. Heh, heh, heh...

(After Cloud's group defeats Jenova-DEATH)

Cloud: Jenova's cells... ...hmm. So that's what this is all about. The Jenova
Reunion...

Tifa: Not Sephiroth!? You mean all this time it wasn't Sephiroth we've been
after?

Cloud: I'll explain later. Right now, the only thing I'm thinking about is beating Sephiroth.

Tifa: But Sephiroth is......

Cloud: He's here. The real Sephiroth is just beyond here. It's both incredibly wicked and cruel... But it's releasing a powerfully strong will from deep within this planet's wound.
Click to expand...

"I'll explain later", he says <sarcasm>....he never does. Just like the sentence about meeting Aeris in the Promise land.....no explanation, just a bunch of words completely out of place.

And lets not forget that Sephiroth, reappears and takes the image of one of Cloud's friends to fool them into following Cloud with the Black Materia. Apparently, he still had a use for someone's body.

The more and more I dig into FF7 storyline...the more and more I feel that there were too many cooks spoiling the broth. The story contridicts itself, in a few places. The purpose of the clones and how they are controlled is competely blurred in the story and it's the key to unlocking the thing.
 
I don't think Sephiroth was carrying Jenova at all.  Jenova was leaving pieces of her body behind for Cloud to fight, even though she took the form of Sephiroth.  (Think about it: she could already take on the form of Sephiroth without her head.  Why wouldn't she be able to maintain it whilst losing other parts of her body?)  The only part of Jenova that the real Sephiroth had was the head.  He was carrying that when he was thrown into the lifestream by Cloud.

As far as the tattoo, wouldn't Jenova want to take on the exact appearance of Sephiroth, including any markings he may have had on his body?

I think that when Seph/Jenova said about "This is the end of this body's usefullness", it was Jenova saying that she could finally let that body die.  She had a new body in Sephiroth (the real one), and was ready to become a god in that body.

None of this manages to explain who was really in control, though.  I like to think that Jenova was the ultimate enemy in the game, that Sephiroth kinda got screwed before birth.

Look at the final Omnislash scene, for example.  Cloud is fighting plain old human Sephiroth.  He's not an almighty being like in the battle before, and he's fairly weak.  Now, I believe this battle happened only in Cloud's mind, that it symbolized him defeating the Jenova cells in his body that tormented him throughout the game . . . but it also symbolizes the fact that without Jenova, Sephiroth is just another human like everyone else.
 
Sukaeto, your going against the dialog....the dialog says Sephiroth was carrying Jenova. If we were discussing who was right....that scene would fold your argument. Unless you can prove it's a translation error.
 
....that scene would fold your argument.
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Or maybe Cloud and co. didn't know what they were talking about at the time...?

Dunno, but I think Sukaeto's theory is very interesting.
 
I just like having fun taking both sides....

Starts 7th post down.....
http://boards.ign.com/Final_Fantasy/b5026/64821539/p8

My handle is Countrywide....there. My posts are kinda spread apart.... Anyway, I pretty much came up with Sukaeto's theory, too. When making Jenova a seperate living being...and not just a virus.

Jimconcrete is the other poster to pay attention to....the others you can pretty much ignore....they never got into it. How boring.


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I owe "Countrywide" Finance 50,000 dollars, so I figured I had the right to use it as my handle, besides...Threesixty was already taken by someone...although I have never seen a post there by a Threesixty.
 
I'm with Aaron.  I don't think Cloud KNEW that it was Jenova.  I kind of think, but have no proof, that the dialog in the Northern Crator between Cloud and Tifa after defeating Jenova death was Cloud DISCOVERING that it WAS Jenova that they were chasing after all along.  

Cloud: Jenova's cells... ...hmm. So that's what this is all about. The Jenova
Reunion...

Tifa: Not Sephiroth!? You mean all this time it wasn't Sephiroth we've been
after?
Click to expand...

Doesn't make too much sense, I think it's a translation error.


btw:  That's great, how you picked that handle (Countrywide), Threesixty. :-D

---Edit---

Alright, I started reading the topic on the IGN board, but I quickly got sick of it.  Jimconcrete isn't proving anything, IMO half of the stuff he's saying doesn't make much sense.  It'd be different if he actually had some interesting ideas to bring to the board, but he seems more bent on being snide and attempting to belittle you than proving anything.
 
I also visited IGN boards...

What Jimconcrete is showing is pointless. He's keeping his side no matter what you say, and will turn down your arguments even if they are true. This was the part when I gave up even reading his posts

"
Quote: Keep that in mind when reading the script. Don't take the script as word per word....take into account the personality of each character and the emotional stress that each is under.

Jimconcrete : your not going to prove anything here
"

Allthough I liked another posters :

"
wonder if anyone connected to Squaresoft ever comes to places like this just to see what crackpot theorys are flying around, thinking "Man, if only they knew it was something completly different to that, and so so simple"....

I think some people read WAAAAAAAY too much into things...
"

And I can't understand why some people think that Sephiroth had control over Jenova. It's not possible. Jenova was and is a demi-god, Sephiroth is just a mere puppet for her, though very useful. How can a joining of Jenova Cells, Mako Energy, and human lifeform be more powerful then a being who killed almost all of the Cetra? It just doesn't make sense.

(Ed: I read on... and now I'm quite sure that ceasing this feasable discussion with Jim is the right thing to do. He's talking nonsense..)
 
I should put my two cents in. Foremostly, I will say that everything I say is my own interperetation after playing the hell out of this game for years straight. The Sephiroths we see throughout the game? I always thought of them as projections of Sephiroth's self. This explains the random flying, going through walls, etc. The way I see it, Sephiroth is trying to Reunite all the scattered cells of Jenova, once Cloud was on the move (He was the third largest concentration of Jenova Cells on the Planet, so it was imperative that he join the Reunion) Sephiroth set into motion, he sent out his projection, and absorbed the mass of his Mummy dearest, (Perhaps took control of the remains of her body, I had never thought of it that way but it makes an ammount of sense.) tore a swath of destruction through the shinra building (Sephiroth carrying/hosting Jenova's body) killed the prez, and left. Yes, he was using this as a chance to revive and his mother (Who I believe was the true orchestrator of it all, Sephiroth was Jenova's puppet, nothing more.), but he could do that at any time he pleased, the reason things happened like they did, was that Sephiroth and Jenova knew it would set the party, especially Cloud, on the path that they wanted them to take.

As it stands, this is how I see the "Chain of Manipulation" going.

Jenova - Sephiroth - Jenova's body - Everyone.

Basically, Jenova sits at the top, she's the Queen Bitch running the whole show, and loves it. I believe her conciousness resides within Sephiroth's body in the northern crater. From here she controls just about everything that Sephiroth does and thinks. And Sephiroth thinks he's doing everything he does of his own free will. So once things begin to move, he either projects himself outwords, or takes control of Jenova's body, (I am liking this idea more and more, so I think I will just tell my rationale from that perspective.) and breaks Jenova loose. Sephiroth's conciousness, Jenova's Will and Body, these are what you actually chase around the game. And united, this Unholy Dichotomy is the force that warps the minds of so many.

Wow, if you think about it, there is a disturbing parallel to Christianity here. The Mother, The Son, and the Jenova Cells. Jenova being a parallel to god, Sephiroth to Jesus, and the Jenova Cells representing the Holy Spirit, the part of this twisted version of God that is in the everyman - Cloud. Heh, perhaps Jenova's assult on the ancients is representive of Christianity's influence on Japan in the time of the Jesuits, but this is a topic for a different discussion entirely.

As for the clones, the reason Sephiroth, or projected sephiroth, was killing them off was to absorb the Jenova in them, and add it to the whole of his Mother that he carried. Reuniting Jenova to her whole self in the long run.

Anywho, that's my two cents, If I think of anything I missed, I'll keep you posted.
 
I wonder, why were Jenova ever placed in the reactor?
And what happened when she got away from there?
Did the reactor cease functioning?

The head, who cut it off?

If Jenova escaped by herself from the cell in the Shinra Tower, where did she get Sephiroth's sword from?
Can she prouduce weapons out of her body too?
 
OK first off, the head was on Jenova in the Nibleheim reactor. Sephiroth cut it off when he took it.

As for why she was in there in the first place, I am pretty sure it was there to provide energy for the monsters.
 
As for why she was in there in the first place, I am pretty sure it was there to provide energy for the monsters.
Click to expand...
More like to provide cells for the monsters I'd think...

Just for the sake of adding another spin to this conversation, how about this?.....

Sephiroth, in and of himself, is only human. Before anyone attacks that statement, he was infused with Jenova cells in utero by "daddy dearest" Hojo. Jenova was responsible for his unbeatability in battle, his super-human ability to weild the Masamune.

Sephiroth was thrown into the Lifestream 5 years ago. We all know this is the last that's seen of him until the Northern Crater. Sephiroth takes the head of Jenova, and by the end of it all, is thrown into the Lifestream by Cloud, still in posestion of the head of Jenova.

Jenova can't be destroyed so easily, hence the Reunion, the cells will find their way back together.

Now, what if, because of the high concentration of Jenova, Sephiroth's body merged with Jenova's head, thus beginning the Reunion. At this point, Sephiroth is dead, mentally at least. His body becomes nothing more than a primary host for Jenova, a point to which all other's will be drawn for the Reunion.

Cloud: Jenova's cells... ...hmm. So that's what this is all about. The Jenova
Reunion...

Tifa: Not Sephiroth!? You mean all this time it wasn't Sephiroth we've been
after?
Click to expand...
At this point Cloud realizes that it was the body of Jenova, not Sephiroth, that they'd been chasing around the world. This is what trigger's Cloud's breakdown, if it wasn't Sephiroth that they were chasing, then what happened to him after the Nibelheim incident 5 yrs ago, the last time he was seen?

Why does Jenova take Sephiroth's form and not another?
Cloud: He's here. The real Sephiroth is just beyond here. It's both incredibly wicked and cruel... But it's releasing a powerfully strong will from deep within this planet's wound.
Click to expand...
Sephiroth, or at least his body, acting as the host of Jenova's central being (the head), told the body what form to take, and what to do along the way. There are 3 possible reasons why Sephiroth's form was used:

One is simply the intimidation factor, e.g. noone will try to obstruct a black-caped man with a very mean-looking sword while he's passing through town.

Two is that Sephiroth has been dead for 5 years, so the odds of him being recognized by the average person are slim, while others will know him right away and be afraid, i.e. Cloud, President Shinra, and anyone else involved in the grand scheme.

And three is that it will entice Cloud to follow, as Cloud would make a valuable asset to the Reunion. Remember, Cloud was the only "successful" subject as a Sephiroth "clone" which is shown by the fact that he pursued what he thought to be Sephiroth all the way to the Northern Crater.

In the end, Jenova was the grand manipulator of it all, Sephiroth the host of a grander being, and Cloud the sometimes-unknowing, sometimes-unwilling puppet, and Tifa the key to unlock Cloud's ability to overcome what would have otherwise overtaken him entirely.
 
Sephiroth, in and of himself, is only human. Before anyone attacks that statement, he was infused with Jenova cells in utero by "daddy dearest" Hojo. Jenova was responsible for his unbeatability in battle, his super-human ability to weild the Masamune.
Click to expand...
just wanted to correct that... <atleast i think> but it wasnt hojo that infused sephiroth with jenova cells but professor gast if i'm not mistaken.. and i also would like to know... where did sephiroths memory problem come from? cause in the flashback seen as he was losing it he didnt remember being "created" by professor gast... is that just a part of the mako treatment? or as theorised before as to clouds memory being created from zacks war stories and imprints of tifa's memory by the jenova cells trying to reconstruct clouds mind after the first mako poisoning... well what happened to sephiroth for him to have false memories or no memories possibly... also i think also where were all the sephiroth clones throughout the beginning of the story? why did they just suddenly appear? and unless i'm mistaken <yea ok its my first time playing again in years> but zack was aeris' boyfriend she mentioned breifly right? well what role did that have anywhere? was there something i missed? and tifa... yea she knew a lot more than she let on throughout the story but i don't remember it being explained why she withheld everything from cloud... i'd give my own oppinions on these questions i have here but its 430 am and i think i'm gonna finish the game first before i go into that but just thought i'd see what everyone else had to say on this
 
where did sephiroths memory problem come from? cause in the flashback seen as he was losing it he didnt remember being "created" by professor gast... is that just a part of the mako treatment? or as theorised before as to clouds memory being created from zacks war stories and imprints of tifa's memory by the jenova cells trying to reconstruct clouds mind after the first mako poisoning... well what happened to sephiroth for him to have false memories or no memories possibly...
Click to expand...
Sephiroth had no memory problems. He was told that his mother was a woman named Jenova and that she died after she gave birth to him.

Think of it this way, do you know who your mother is, the date of your birth, and where you were born? You weren't there though, how could you possibly know for sure? The answer is simple, you are told those things. Same with Sephiroth, the reason that he didn't know was because he was never told. Essentially the same as a child of an extra-marital affair who is told that his father is his mother's husband. How could the child know any different? Not much of a point for analysis really....
 
like i said i'm gonna play some more an get back to this... just to be sure on what i wanna say
 
...Cloud was not a succesful clone...he was a failer. In order for the story ever to take place, he would have to be a failer.

I have a theory about the creation of a clone of Jenova. To create a Clone the game said it needed Jenova's cells and Mako Energy. Ask yourself,  "What is Mako Energy?" It's lifestream, right? A place where memories of the dead go.  I havent' "made-up" a complete theory here...but just keep your mind open on this.

Maybe Cloud died that day. Maybe the Jenova's cells during this cloning process, gather memories from the Mako Energy. And for whatever reason....it couldn't find any for Cloud. And thus he was had no self-being....he was a retard. A body with no memories or being, but just full of Jenova. A newborn. And like newborns, need to learn stuff the hard way. He started with Zack's ambitions....then ended up with Tifa's memores of a little boy in her childhood.

As for Zack, he was already a soldier...he already went thru some type of process. Maybe that's why the Jenova cell part of the cloning process didn't work. And since there was no new Jenova cells in him...there was no Mako Energy influence, either. His immunity allowed him to stay himself.
 
I thought Hojo assumed Cloud was a failure, but was wrong.
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To me, that seemed like an area of grey, as a clone he was a partial-success I would say. He was drawn by the Reunion, but only on a subconscious level. He was also subject to Jenova's control, just like the other clones were. But at the same time, he had a soul of his own, Jenova's power over him was not total, which is seen when his friends are able to stop him from killing Aeris. He was not a total success, but not a total failure either, and that, to me, has always seemed like a central point in things.
 
Messiah:  Your theory on Jenova/Sephiroth is pretty much EXACTLY what I believe, except for the part about Sephiroth having died in the lifestream.  I had never thought of that before, but I think I like it.  It would make sense.

Threesixty:  I guess Cloud dying is a possiblility . . . though I wouldn't like to think of it that way.  Mako poisoning is a very traumatic experience . . . people are known to lose their memory when they experience something that catastrophic.  (I'd just hate to think that it wasn't really Cloud that you were playing as the whole way through the game.)


---edit---

In fact, I liked your theory on Sephiroth being dead by the time he reached the Northern Crater, I went and made a post on the IGN board and used that in my theory.
 
Ok, i have a theory of my own.
Sephiroth died when he fell into the lifestream, but his strong will/consciousness somehow survived and merged with the "memories" in the lifestream itself. And as you know, Mako is refined from lifestream.

Hojo used Jenova cells to create clones of Sephiroth. Cloud however had suffered Mako poisoning due to the experiments Hojo performed on him and Zack, so he lost his own memories and was forced to the will of sephiroth (due to the mako) to follow him to the crater where Sephiroth most likely wanted his revenge on what Cloud did to him in the Nibelheim reactor. (whew)
Sephiroth just had to let him have some memories of Zack (which Sephiroth had access to, since Zack died and went to the planet) and mixed it with some of his own memories. So he let Cloud drag himself to the sector 7 slums. That's when Tifa found him at the station in sector 7, and Cloud regained his consciousness.

Hope you understand my bad English...
N.
 
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