[FF7PC-98] Beacause - FF7 Retranslation (Merged into Reunion, use that instead)

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blin1{BARRET}
「チッ……！
　すっかりかこまれてやがる」{NEW}
「オレひとりならともかく
　このメンツじゃ……」
actually "mentsu/メンツ" usually just means "group" but it CAN mean "face" but i doubt thats what Barrett is talking about here.
i think hes either talking about his group as in barrett, aeris, etc. or hes talking about the group outside(shinra soldiers).
i believe hes talking about his group which would be along the lines of
"if it was just myself, i could get by, but with the members of this group, i wont be able to protect all of you"
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I would like to see a dictionairy reference to this, as I've never heard of the term mentsu being used that way.
A word that sounds similar that would be used in such a context is 人数, but that is clearly not the case.

as for the other translations, i think its fine and it gets the point across. of course if u want a  REALLY DIRECT translation that would be something else... like for the maid
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There is no such thing as a "really direct" translation when dealing with two languages as different as Japanese and English, seeing as many of the concepts and terms don't have equals in the other language.
The fact of the matter is that you'll have to leave those parts to personal interpretation, or try your best to establish a similar term by playing around with words of similar meaning.

For examples, the translation you provide here:

“I'm a beautiful maid,
but I buy and sell
accessories on the side.”{NEW}
“You wont  be ashamed wearing any　of these anywhere…
only goods of the finest quality here.
So, how about it? would you like one?"
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which lacks expression for several parts of the dialogue - In particular:

"あたしゃ", "だけどね", "してるのさ", and　"ばっか", which in total makes it quite different from the what it would actually have said
in Japanese if it was meant to be taken as straight forward as the way you translate it here - In which case it would probably look like this:

あたし/私は美人のメイドだけど、ないしょくで、アクセサリーの売り買いもしてるよ。
どこに顔を出してもはずかしくない極上の品ばっかりだよ。どう？ひとつは？

Simply saying that in translation work, there is no such thing as direct translation when dealing completely different langauges, especially if what is being expressed is expressed with area-specific dialects and/or sociolects, and entail terms expressing culture-specific phenomenon(which the part you highlighted does).

Source:Im Japanese
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Do you have any schooling in Japanese or linguistics, or spendt any prolonged period in Japan?
Do you have any experience with translation?

Source: I live in Japan, my wife is Japanese, and I have a BA in East Asian studies. Cheers.

Possibly, I'll look into it :)

In other news....  Gust is goin back to Gusto.  Gusto is very very likely to be correct.  For anyone not in the know, Gast Faremis is named after 2 restaurants / food places.  Faremis comes from an anagram of Famires (Family Restaurant), and Gusto from 

http://www.thefoodpursuit.com/cafe-restaurant-gusto-tokyo-japan/

Gast is a mistranslation.
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To be fair though, the restaurants name is written with the katakana ガスと, which in romaji spells out "GASUTO".
So I can see how that error might happen - Still we can't know for sure whether the creators where going for a name based on the Katakana reading of ガスと, rather than the western reading of it.

I'm all for Gusto though. It's not like it's a big change from Gast.
 
Plus people have an option in installer to use the original incorrect names if it really bothers them.  As for Barrett, I think the consensus is he is referring to running away.
 
Plus people have an option in installer to use the original incorrect names if it really bothers them.  As for Barrett, I think the consensus is he is referring to running away.
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There is no doubt about that. The doubt lies in how Barrett is himself, and his reasons for wanting to run away.

At the end of the day, it depends on how you want to portray Barretts character.
Personally, from my own experience with characters in Japanese media, I would say that Barrett is the sort of tough guy character - In that lies his use of the term "face"(as I exlained in my first post) - Instead of saying something like "I can't handle this, let's run away", he expresses it as "I could handle this, but because that would be "flashy"/uncool, I choose not to".
From the use of the term "mentsu" in this context, that is a perfectly valid interpretation, and one that stands well with Barretts persona.

Having Barrett blame his fellow characters, or something else for his inability to solve the situation, is "unbarrettlike".

In any case, my objection lies to intepreting "mentsu" as "group" - Which sounds like a mistranslation.
I don't mind the use of such a sentence though, since the end result doesn't change all that much.
 
ニッコリすれば面子を保てますよ。 You can save face with a happy smile

That is the usual interpretation.  To save face.  :)  It seems likely to me at least, that this is simply barrett saving face because he is a tough guy and doesnt want to be seen running.
 
ニッコリすれば面子を保てますよ。 You can save face with a happy smile

That is the usual interpretation.  To save face.  :)  It seems likely to me at least, that this is simply barrett saving face because he is a tough guy and doesnt want to be seen running.
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Yep, that's exactly what I was saying. Which is why I object to the term "group". If someone is gonna "nit-pick" on the general translation, they should at least do it right.

メンツ (面子)
http://zokugo-dict.com/34me/ments.htm
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn2/218236/m0u/
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Thanks a lot for chipping in.

But this still seems to confirm what I'm saying, namely that mentsu is not generally used to mean group, nor is it likely that this is the meaning barrett used it with.

The term mentsu, used to mean member, developed specifically from a mahjong expression. Not only that, the only example of usage provided(as opposed to the "face" definition, which has many), in both dictionairy entries, are specifically written in junction with the term ―が揃う, which to me seems odd. All examples I've seen, are usages specific to when members are lacking or the numbers of members are in question. Why would Barrett say he could have handled it alone, but because members are lacking he can't handle it?

Secondly, after a quick google of the term, it seems even several Japanese people are uncertain about the usage of the term, so it can hardly be a term of general usage(or a term with a consensus use). This makes it even less likely that the writers would have used it in this context.
Several people even said out flat on forums and similar, that the only times the term is validly used to mean member, is when either members are failing to turn up, or one is uncertain about the final line-up of members.

In either case, it's being branded by most as either a substandard term, or as a term only used in a specific context, which in either case does not make sense in the case of this piece of dialogue, since barrett is saying he would have managed it alone.
 
oh, i am SO sorry for trying to help! :]
pfft a dictionary reference. a word's definition is not what a damn book says, its what the people use it as.
of course you can learn a language through textbooks and dictionaries but when you communicate with actual native speakers, you should find that certain words, phrases, etc. are interpreted differently. this should be VERY obvious for any language.
oh but yes. i guess "members" was what i was shooting for. teehee

このメンツじゃ……」

its really mindboggling to me how farfetched it is to interpret this as saving face. hes literally saying "but with this face..." LOL WHAT?! WHO SAYS THAT?!
 
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oh, i am SO sorry for trying to help! :]
pfft a dictionary reference. a word's definition is not what a damn book says, its what the people use it as.
of course you can learn a language through textbooks and dictionaries but when you communicate with actual native speakers, you should find that certain words, phrases, etc. are interpreted differently. this should be VERY obvious for any language.
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A dictionairy definition is usually formed by general usage. When a certain usage is so minimal that it is hardly made notice of in any substantial way(especially granted the time that has passed since it was used), then it is usually substandard. FF7 is a game - A game meant to be played by many people. Having one of the main characters use a term in a way that most people would be incapable of getting is unlikely at best.

I asked for a reference because this is a thread dedicated to translation - If you're going to help out and provide alternative translations, it's only natural to do so through discussion, and by making proper references.

I learned my Japanese primarily from communicating with native speakers - this doesn't change the fact that translating works is different from just communicating in a language. You have to think about what the author was trying to say, and what way to best express that in the other language, while keeping it as close to the original meaning as possible.

In your case, you provided a translation, as I pointed out, lacked expression for several important parts of the sociolect used in the dialogue. That to me, subtracts from my image of your ability to translate.

このメンツじゃ……」

its really mindboggling to me how farfetched it is to interpret this as saving face. hes literally saying "but with this face..." LOL WHAT?! WHO SAYS THAT?!
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No, that's not how you translate it, because "mentsu" does not actually mean "face" - It's a Japanese term describing a concept we in the west generally define with the word "face", and is more aptly translated as honour, reputation, etc.

The fact is that if we define it as group, barretts sentence makes little sense as is, since it either means he's downtalking his comrades(unlikely), or stating that the odds are too great(but then why would being alone help him?).

My post was not meant as an attack on you, but simply because I wanted verification to your translation appart from "I'm Japanese", because it differs largely from the consenus in this thread, and because I was unfamiliar with the usage. You did not provide verification, and have not provided any good reason why your alternative is more likely appart from a snide remarks, and a complete lack of respect for linguistics and translation work.

I doubt anyone here is against help, and it's certainly needed - But it's worth considering how you're offering it.
 
I tend to agree with FlyingToast, I had actually translated it as group / members initially, but after running it through Dan we decided to go with the face business. After going over it again it really does make more sense as "but what with this lineup...", I'll run it by a couple of friends just to be sure.
 
Hmm  so we are still in the dark :P?

I and Hian seem to be going with

"If I were on my own, I'd....  but I gotta reputation to think of."

 and Luksy and Flyingtoast with "If I were on my own this'd be no problem, but with this lot..."

I have to lean strongly toward the 1st, that he wants to leg it but can't because he has to save honour/face.  But I am not Japanese speaker, so it is up to you people to iron it out hehe  8-)

The context, so you are all sure, is Barrett and his buddies are leaving the building when they notice they are completely surrounded.  He is talking to himself (I think), since you wouldn't use that sentence at someone.  My problem with the first is, it says "I am better alone".  Like Hian, I cannot see how that fits the scene at all.

How can he be better off without people helping him?

L.Spiro has voted for the second option.  So it is 3-2 against me and Hian. 3-1 in terms of japanese...

"If I were on my own, this'd be no prob!  But with these guys!"
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edit:

and from L. spiros co-worker (native)

Damn, we seem to be surrounded by the enemies.  I alone could possibly handle the situation, but what can I do with these members?
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4-2.  And I am being forced to change my vote....
 
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Ditto from a friend of mine "given the tone and the way he cuts off the phrase, he's talking about his friends/companions".
 
Looks like we have to bow to the majority, Hian :P  The large consensus is we are wrong.  I do think this needs looking at a bit more maybe, since all the dictionaries I use, mention the meaning to be "honour" and not group.
 
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sorry, just get butthurt easily.
but i agree that these translations will be hard becuz it depends on how you portray each character and how they express their emotions/thoughts. so in reality, barrett could be saying a bunch of different things. should be better than the OG translations tho cuz sometimes i have no idea what theyre saying.

「オレひとりならともかく..
this phrase is blegh too imo cuz he doesnt really finish it so its up for whatever u want it to be.

any other quotes that we can argue over?
 
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Looks like we have to bow to the majority, Hian :P  The large consensus is we are wrong.  I do think this needs looking at a bit more maybe, since all the dictionaries I use, mention the meaning to be "honour" and not group.
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There's plenty of other mahjong words you wont find in most dictionaries.
 
How do you you people cope when there is such ambiguity in the language :P?  8-)

OK then, the final line is:

"sh*t! we're completely surrounded!{NEW}
   "If I were on my own,this'd be nothin'...."

That implies it and sounds natural to me.  And sounding natural is most important to me as
long as there is implication of the original meaning in these circumstances.

Other wise somethin' like

"sh*t! we're completely surrounded!{NEW}
   "If I were on my own, this'd be nothin'...   but what 'bout the others?"

Actually maybe second one works just as well.
========

@FlyingToast

Don't worry about it.  Fight your corner and if you are right you are right.  I am not here to do what I want.  I am here to do a good job of this.

haha we could also go with

"Bro!  We're surrounded! {NEW}
Without you niggaz, i'd waste these suckers!
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 :-D
 
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I can't speak English, but
オレひとりならともかく このメンツじゃ……
Actually, this phrase is not so important. When Japanese person read this sentence, most of Japanese never think that Brret thinks Aerith is cumbersome. Because another emotion is hiding in last "……". Check Kabuki term 腹芸 (hara-gei) if you don't know it.

Why Barret came here is to rescue Aerith. Barret cried when he has met Marlene at Aerith's house. What did he said when Cloud hesitated to climb the wall. The only one that Barret thinks is how to let Aerith get out from here, He will risks his life to save Aerith because she has saved Marlene. And it is not necessary to tell his determination to Aerith. But Aerith feels it and is also going to risk her life.
「……やっぱり、あなたたちだけ逃げて」
「あの人たちがねらっているのはわたし。あなたたちだけなら……」

Barret's purpose is Aerith, he wants to rescue her without even a scratch.  RedXIII is a new acquaintance, not well known. Furthermore Barret had looked RedXIII's weak side in the captivity room. This difficult situation made him say "このメンツじゃ".

If you want to express Japanese nuance, you must put those feelings into your translation.
 
Your english is too poor to understand properly.  Send PM to Luksy or Hian in Japanese, they can understand exactly what you are meaning to say :)
 
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I'm pretty sure I understand him.  I'll elaborate.  It's all based on that last line.

It looks like Asa's emphasizing that the people with Barrett are Aerith and Red XIII.  Barrett only knows Aerith as someone who was captured (one boss fight aside).  He only knows Red XIII, similarly, as someone who had been captured before he helped him escape (i.e. by shooting the container he was in).  Tifa and Cloud, whose skills he trusts, are still elsewhere.

So, Asa interprets mentsu to mean "group" (which, as I've gathered, is in this context really a gaming metaphor being something like English "being dealt this hand"?) and he gives the context for why Barrett would appear to speak disparagingly (but not really) of his companions.  He still sees them as people who require saving/protection/sheltering from Shinra (not that he begrudges them that -- after all, past Barrett quotes have emphasized how much he feels he owes Aerith).

Side-Issue: Was a new version released?  I thought I saw that a new version was coming (005?), but I don't know if it was ever posted.  I get confused because there are something like 3 threads that all feature updates about this umbrella project....
 
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Nah it hasn't been released yet all in good time and thanks for clearing that up :)  There are few ways to incorporate the exact feel of that sentence... if any.  Which is why we are left with:

"sh*t!  We're completely surrounded.  If I were on my own this'd be nothin'... but what about the others?..."
 
Maybe make the last clause (kono mentsu) more reflective of concern than of holding him back, since the intended message (if Asa is correct) is that Aerith and Red XIII are first and foremost people Barrett wants to protect rather than fellow fighters.  The interpretation makes you wonder if the elevator boss was added late in development.

"Sh*t!  We're completely surrounded.  On my own, this'd be nothin'... but these guys...wonder if they'd make it...?"

EDIT: I did a quick search for the Mahjong term.  This is what it appears to mean specifically in that context, which is pretty clearly where the metaphor is drawn from (http://www.osamuko.com/2009/04/03/big-list-of-japanese-mahjong-terminology/):

mentsu -- meld -- [the term used here] "meld" comes from [the Western card game] rummy

A "meld" is when you have, say, 3 5s and may play them to earn points.  I'd never known the formal English term.  So the metaphor may be that the pair [Aerith/Red XIII] share a certain characteristic [needing protection].  It might make the gaming metaphor is little clearer, if it wasn't before.

I don't know if there's a way to work in a gaming metaphor without making the tone seem weird in English (this is probably a pretty casual expression in Japanese, but in English the equivalents will make him sound like Setzer), but it may be worth thinking about.
 
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