[FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v2.0.999992)

[paralleluniverse]

A small suggestion, Cait Sith is a little mediocre in terms of limit breaks, unless your good with manipulating the slots. How hard would it be to give Cait Sith new limit breaks if even possible XD.

 

[Vgr]

Cait Sith and Vincent's limit breaks are hardcoded and cannot be easily changed. Doable, but hard and probably not worth it.

 

[lappers84]

I finally reached Rocket Town NOTE: Powersoul Keeper gave me a scare when he spammed me with Powersoul Combo. As I headed up to see Cid the game crashed on me - It was as I climbed the first ladder, Cloud suddenly began walking back towards the ladder continously.  I had to shut off my laptop.

I will load up the game again see if it was a one off, but will tell you if it does it again.

Cheers

EDIT: Looks like it was just a one off, worked fine when I reloaded.  Also wanted to ask does the Zolom still have Beta? - went back to fight him, twice.  And didn't use it.

 

[Sega Chief]

A small suggestion, Cait Sith is a little mediocre in terms of limit breaks, unless your good with manipulating the slots. How hard would it be to give Cait Sith new limit breaks if even possible XD.

Like VGR said, they're hard-coded. I'm not sure if I've done this correctly for this version (been meaning to check it) but for Vincent I gave him all three transformations for each limit level. The idea was to make them more versatile and to set up each level as having it's own gauge rate. Lv.1 fills fast, Lv.2 fills slowly, and Lv.3 never fills (so Vince can keep his attack command free). Lv.4 is the same as ever, just Chaos on that. I also set up a FF7.exe file that makes tweaks to limit breaks; it's not part of the mod, but might be useful as an optional extra.

I finally reached Rocket Town NOTE: Powersoul Keeper gave me a scare when he spammed me with Powersoul Combo. As I headed up to see Cid the game crashed on me - It was as I climbed the first ladder, Cloud suddenly began walking back towards the ladder continously.  I had to shut off my laptop.

I will load up the game again see if it was a one off, but will tell you if it does it again.

Cheers

EDIT: Looks like it was just a one off, worked fine when I reloaded.  Also wanted to ask does the Zolom still have Beta? - went back to fight him, twice.  And didn't use it.

That's the dreaded ladder glitch; try to be careful when coming off a ladder to avoid pressing the confirm button or to be running back at the ladder. It can happen in a few places.

Zolom no longer has Beta, that was moved to Pollensalta. Stilva will have Beta as well when the next scene.bin update goes in (he still uses Magic Breath for now). Zolom was supposed to have a spell called Alpha replacing Beta but I just found the problem with why he wasn't using it and that's been fixed.

 

[Loseless]

Hi!

I have two quick questions regarding this mod

How many enemy skills had their users changed and is the increased AP requirements for leveling materia compensated by the increased AP gained from battles? I ask this because I don't feel like getting level 2 spells at Mt. Nibel and if thats the case I'll just pass offensive green materia.

 

[Sega Chief]

Alright, so first off the AP requirements were only adjusted slightly. You'll probably get Tier 2 Magic spells around about these areas depending on your approach.
-) Rush (run from most fights): Gold Saucer Area
-) Standard (1-3 battles per area, or fight what you see): Junon Area
-) Grind (Probably in Midgar)

If you rush, you can use 2x Growth equipment to quickly make back the lost AP from Junon Docks onwards if the Materia hasn't leveled up yet. I recently boosted the requirement for Tier 3 spells so they'll hopefully pop after the Whirlwind Maze but by this point the gulf created by each player's approach makes this difficult to predict. Just know that you won't need hours upon hours to unlock a spell; even if you don't use 2x AP equipment you'll still be getting spells quite quickly. I had to up the requirement for Tier 3 because people were unlocking it at around the Temple of the Ancients and complaining that they were finding fights too easy after that. I made the adjustments to account for that.

But it's also important to know that the spells themselves were made slightly stronger and cost less MP. Most enemies have a consistent elemental weakness too which doubles the damage. Bugs, vermin, and other common enemies like wolves tend to be weak to Ice and Fire. Mechanical enemies are weak to Bolt and Water (which is surprisingly inconsistent across mechanical enemies in the default game). Heavy or large enemies can be hit hard with Earth but are resistant to Gravity and Wind, while flying enemies are the opposite; immune to Earth but weak to Gravity and Wind. And there's actual elemental affinities too; Aps, which uses Water attacks, is resistant to Fire but weak to Bolt. The idea was to make it more intuitive to tell what an enemy is weak to just by looking at it without having to use Sense (but that's there as a back-up if you're ever unsure).

But this is where I'm going to talk about where Spells, E. Skills, and Summons are (supposed) to fit in with each other. In the regular game, Enemy Skills blow Magic spells right out of the water. In fact, they also out-power most Summons as well and are faster to cast in terms of Animation (and can be cast more than once from the out-set and be equipped to 2 people by Junon, and then 3 people by the Forgotten City). This used to be 'balanced' off by E.Skills being hard to find (at least originally, everyone knows where they are or can find them within minutes thanks to strategy guides and FAQs) but this is no longer the case.

So I balanced and moved certain E.Skills around to try and have them plug potential gaps in the player's arsenal instead of outright replacing that arsenal early on. I'll give information on where they were moved to, effect changes (if any) and my reasoning for each decision. If an E. Skill isn't listed here, or no mention is made of it being moved, then assume that it's the same as in the original version.

-) Frog Song: Reduced chance to inflict Sleep + Frog to 80%, and higher MP cost. Keeps Transform and Sleepel (which are reliable) in the game. The Magic Materia has a benefit of Support Materia but I need to balance it against E. Skills natural utility in having so many versatile spells in one slot. This was kept in mind for the rest of the revisions listed below.

-) White Wind: Still the same, but it only heals Sleep and Confusion (being a physical-formula spell). Probably still too powerful.

-) Big Guard: In the regular game this makes Barrier/MBarrier and Haste obsolete before/just as they become available because it has a cheaper cost overall and affects all targets. It also has convenience on it's side as it comes in a stack with other E. Skills and the animation is faster than two animations. I moved this to much later in the game as a result. The player obtains Barrier and MBarrier when Aeris joins the party, and Haste/Time when Yuffie is recruited (so as early as the Junon area).

You could argue that there will be times when individual statuses like Haste, Barrier, and MBarrier might not be beneficial in certain scenarios and that Big Guard lacks versatility (and the spells they replace are cheaper to cast alone though not together) but this doesn't hold back the sheer utility of the spell in the majority of situations where having all three statuses on the party will be beneficial.

-) Angel Whisper: Still with Pollensalta, this spell has lost it's status-ailment healing to Full Cure (which now gives a 100% Heal + Esuna for a hefty MP cost). It still revives from KO, but only heals 50% of the target's HP. It balances nicely with Full Cure and other healing spells I've found.

-) Dragon Force: This breaks the end-game when natural defences creep higher and higher. Like Big Guard, it's now won from a boss that you fight after giving one of the three items to the Kalm Traveller. As this mod uses very few defence-ignoring attacks, a high defence coupled with this will make the player almost invincible. Still broken in my eyes but I wasn't about to remove it or nerf it until it became useless; a common dilemma I've found.

-) Flamethrower: This spell is a small 'plug' between Tier 1 and Tier 2 spells. It has a higher base power than the Tier 1 Fire, but is utterly out-stripped by Fire2 when it becomes available. If the player has reached Junon Area and Tier 2 is still out of sight then this'll bolster their arsenal a bit until they unlock it, along with Matra Magic. They're not necessary to progress, though.

-) Laser: This is a problem for two reasons. First, it enables a cheap Demi2 early on which makes it less likely for people to use Gravity Materia and second it becomes utterly useless itself when Demi 2 is finally unlocked and can be combined with Support Materia like All or Quad. So I changed it to inflict 1/5th of MaxHP as damage (instead of current HP like the regular Demi spells do). Makes it useful for landing the killing blow against enemies with high HP.

-) Bad Breath: Reduced the chance for the ailments to be inflicted; reins in it's power immensely and makes Malboro-type enemies easier to fight. Keeps status magic in the game, to an extent; the utility of Bad Breath is still far greater but any further nerf would make it too useless for the player or enemies to use. I may need to consider something else rather than accuracy/status-chance but for now this is how it's been set up.

-) Beta, Aqualung, Trine: These three spells derailed Magic completely in the default game, dealing considerably more damage for less MP and hitting all targets to boot. Support Materia doesn't close the gap until things like Ultima, Comet, and Contain are available so Fire3, etc. mostly became useless.

In this mod, these spells are instead used to bridge the gap between Tier2 and Tier3 spells transitioning from Disc 1 to Disc 2 (or this is the hope, at least). Their base power was dropped to 34-38, but had some additional effects added on like Instant KO and Paralysis (small chance). Trine is available from Garuda enemies on Da Chao, Wutai. Aqualung is available from Acrophies in the Forgotten City. And Beta is available from Stilva on the Gaea's Cliffs, replacing Magic Breath (Beta is also available again from Pollensalta if it's missed). This ensures that Tier2 and early Summon spells are not immediately made obsolete by these E.Skills with the bonus of giving the player some additional firepower when Tier2 spells might start to come short (though these should all still be quite deadly going up to the Whirlwind Maze).

-) Magic Breath: Stronger than a Tier 3 spell and with a Debarrier effect now, I pushed this toward the end of the game. Malboros in the Crater now have it, as well as one of the Extra Battle bosses. It's Shout Element now too, making it more versatile than the original but perhaps less likely to deal double damage; the Debarrier effect makes up for that. Has a high base power of 77, just like the original; it'll potentially be competing with Contain, Comet, etc. by this point.

-) Shadow Flare: Given the 'Hidden' Element and now ignores defence; it's for getting around certain optional bosses that were given high defence as part of a special mechanic (like the Blue Materia Cave boss for instance). It won't affect enemies that are immune or absorb this element, making it fairly useless in the North Crater and against certain other bosses. I should probably lock up this spell better but for now it's available from Ultimate Weapon and the repeatable Extra Battle boss Tyrant.

-) Pandora's Box: Same as S. Flare, except now it's only available from a Kalm Traveler boss.

Where do Summons come in? It depends on the time of the game it becomes available. Choco/Mog -> Titan are all similar in power to Tier2 spells but they hit groups without having their damage reduced (like Fire2+All would) and each inflict a nasty status ailment to boot. They're there for early-game nuke strats (if the player doesn't mind the extra time from the animation) or to patch up the player's attacks if Tier 2 hasn't unlocked yet. The mid-game summons like Bahamut and Leviathan are a fair bit stronger, as it's around this time the animations get longer. The general idea is that no matter where you are in the game, and no matter how you played up until that point, you'll always have some kind of firepower to fall back on. But you should hopefully not get stuck because the EXP + AP given are higher and you can win fights just as quick as before so long as you pay attention and use weaknesses to your advantage, just like in any tactical RPG.

I can't say I've got this balance exactly right yet. There are problems later on where the mod becomes too easy because of Tier 3 spells unlocking too fast or Ultimate Weapons becoming available. On the other hand, some people have found it tough-going in places; your personal experience and approach always plays a part in any game's difficulty. What I try to do is make subtle revisions that help patch up glaring faults in the mod based on everyone's feedback.

TL;DR (what is this 'brevity' of which you speak?)
Extra AP from enemies more than handles the slightly higher AP requirement for certain levels of spells.
Certain Enemy Skills moved about and re-tuned but had a reason for doing so in each case.

Conclusion: Use Magic spells, they're really useful now. Maybe too useful.

 

[Loseless]

Thanks for the answer. I don't mind reading long posts as long as they say something. And I sure loved to know what your approach was.

From what I've read I can pretty much applaud your efforts. But having yet to play the mod extensively, I can not tell you much. What I can say however is that if you're having trouble finding when should X materia level up, just try to force it. For example: people usually get lvl2 spells before Corel. If you think this should be the appropriate place, have the enemies until then give out little AP, so that the materia should hardly level up, unless there's some serious grinding involved (a few hours perhaps), and then, around Corel, have enemies granting a lot more AP. Like instead of giving out 10 or 20 a battle have them give 70 or 80.

Back in the days a lot of RPGs did that. They used a system called "frontier bosses". Enemies that you would have to fight before progressing and that were faced in areas that you could go back from and shop or rest if needed (no entrapment). In this case, imagine that when you were expecting players to reach lvl2 spells before Junon. So? You would make the damn serpent thing a lot harder, so that Fire 2 would be needed (that and have it be immune to poison). That way players would have to train to get AP.

But considering the damage output and how you're having difficulties balancing it out by the end of the game, if I understand the damage mechanics correctly, most thinks rely on the characters level to determine damage, correct? Then its quite easy: considerably lower the EXP values of all encounters, and let the AP untouched. That way players will still have access to high level spells but they won't deal much damage because the level multiplier is too low. Fighting Jenove Life with a level 30 party should be interesting. It would drastically change the gameplay, however, as pure attacking would become ratter useless (unless your reduced significantly the enemy's defense and raised magic defense). It would certainly make the game more materia oriented. Therefore maybe more slots on equipment? Or more materia avaliable that would be otherwise unattainable until disc 2?

Just some brainstorming. But if you're trying to push for a strategic type of gameplay, more materia and less physical is the way to go. I always disliked how the materia system had so much potential and by the time you got the really good stuff it would just be plain easier to spam attacks... Sure, W-Magic Quadramagic Comet 2 is great! But by the time you had cast 8 Comet 2 you could have spammed 30 attacks.

Therefore, it might be interesting to null or greatly reduce the ultimate weapons multipliers, so that only a character with 255 str and 255 luck can inflict 9999. That or have enemies with pornographic amounts of HP and have a break 9999 cap thing in the mod. Other interesting idea would be having all final weapons use the Death Penalty multiplier, so that you needed to use them for a LONG time before they become overpowered. And by that time, most materia would have reached master anyway.

If you need crash dummies let me know. I've been doing this since Celtic was kicking Ranger's arse

 

[lappers84]

That almost answered the question I was going to ask.  So by the sounds of it I haven't really missed any of the enemy skills (currently on disc 2 - on the huge materia hunt.)

One more thing.  The higher level magics, are they now part of the extra battles and side quests (just to ensure I've not missed anything)

Cheers

 

[Sega Chief]

First of all, to Lappers: Yeah, the Enemy Skills were pushed further into the game. Word to the wise, take plenty of Greens and maintain MBarrier when you fight Yahcobo for Pandora's Box. He uses it when he dies (same with the other two Enemy Skills learned from the Kalm Traveler) and he reduces his own magic stat before using it but it still hits quite hard. Should be 2000 or so with MBarrier up, less if Sadness is on. As for the high-level stuff like Contain, they can be earned by killing Extra Battle bosses and talking to the NPC in the middle. He dishes the Materia prizes out.

To Loseless:

What I can say however is that if you're having trouble finding when should X materia level up, just try to force it. For example: people usually get lvl2 spells before Corel. If you think this should be the appropriate place, have the enemies until then give out little AP, so that the materia should hardly level up, unless there's some serious grinding involved (a few hours perhaps), and then, around Corel, have enemies granting a lot more AP. Like instead of giving out 10 or 20 a battle have them give 70 or 80.

I don't like the idea of interfering too much with player progression (I'm already taking a risk by locking up strong end-game magic and moving 'staple' enemy skills like Beta from their original locations; one of the most frequent questions I get is: Where's Beta?). That being said, I've been thinking that multiplying a value tends to be a bad way to do things and that's essentially what I did with Exp, AP, and Gil. I tuned it all down to 1.5 (and only 2x instead of 4x for bosses) but I think I should do this properly now and micro-manage each number. Heavy on time, though.

Back in the days a lot of RPGs did that. They used a system called "frontier bosses". Enemies that you would have to fight before progressing and that were faced in areas that you could go back from and shop or rest if needed (no entrapment). In this case, imagine that when you were expecting players to reach lvl2 spells before Junon. So? You would make the damn serpent thing a lot harder, so that Fire 2 would be needed (that and have it be immune to poison). That way players would have to train to get AP.

That's an interesting concept, but it's going back to the interference thing. I want a player who has good strategy and experience with the game to be able to progress without being barred because they haven't been playing for long enough; that approach might be okay for a brand new game or gatewayed MMO content but a mod like this is essentially a rehash of the old game, and it has to try and make it worth the player's time to trudge through old ground. If I purposely block people and demand that they grind for spells it's not going to go across well; they've taken a chance on the mod and invested their time, so I need to be careful not to waste that time if I can.

But considering the damage output and how you're having difficulties balancing it out by the end of the game, if I understand the damage mechanics correctly, most thinks rely on the characters level to determine damage, correct? Then its quite easy: considerably lower the EXP values of all encounters, and let the AP untouched. That way players will still have access to high level spells but they won't deal much damage because the level multiplier is too low. Fighting Jenove Life with a level 30 party should be interesting. It would drastically change the gameplay, however, as pure attacking would become ratter useless (unless your reduced significantly the enemy's defense and raised magic defense). It would certainly make the game more materia oriented. Therefore maybe more slots on equipment? Or more materia avaliable that would be otherwise unattainable until disc 2?

You're right, level is a big influence on damage calculation (I've been running a Lv.1 challenge on and off, even with 150+ attack I can still barely do 75 damage). Assuming the damage difference between Lv.30 and Lv.50 is high enough that could cover the Disc 2 problem I've been having. I'll have to experiment with it first, it's a big step to make a change like that and takes time to implement. Just worried I might cut off players who aren't as experienced or who didn't fight a lot of encounters. Less EXP = tougher to recover.

Just some brainstorming. But if you're trying to push for a strategic type of gameplay, more materia and less physical is the way to go. I always disliked how the materia system had so much potential and by the time you got the really good stuff it would just be plain easier to spam attacks... Sure, W-Magic Quadramagic Comet 2 is great! But by the time you had cast 8 Comet 2 you could have spammed 30 attacks.

Therefore, it might be interesting to null or greatly reduce the ultimate weapons multipliers, so that only a character with 255 str and 255 luck can inflict 9999. That or have enemies with pornographic amounts of HP and have a break 9999 cap thing in the mod. Other interesting idea would be having all final weapons use the Death Penalty multiplier, so that you needed to use them for a LONG time before they become overpowered. And by that time, most materia would have reached master anyway.

Yeah, physical hits greatly out-power magic in terms of speed later in the game. I boosted spells a little, but because the Ultimate Weapons are fairly easy to get it pretty much kills the mod dead on Disc 3. I knew it would, but I didn't feel comfortable nerfing those weapons when people had earned them from a boss fight. The current planned solution is to move them to another set of content that's much harder than the current ones; that way I've got an excuse to make some new stuff for it (which makes up for, y'know, moving them). I considered the Death Penalty thing for a bit but they'd be hitting for paltry damage when acquired which wouldn't have gone across too well.

If you need crash dummies let me know. I've been doing this since Celtic was kicking Ranger's arse

Cheers, I'll maybe throw some alpha material your way if I need a second opinion on something. But...how did you know I was a Rangers fan? D:

 

[Loseless]

You're right, level is a big influence on damage calculation (I've been running a Lv.1 challenge on and off, even with 150+ attack I can still barely do 75 damage). Assuming the damage difference between Lv.30 and Lv.50 is high enough that could cover the Disc 2 problem I've been having. I'll have to experiment with it first, it's a big step to make a change like that and takes time to implement. Just worried I might cut off players who aren't as experienced or who didn't fight a lot of encounters. Less EXP = tougher to recover.

The thing is, even if the player was lazy during first disc and skipped many fights, making the party avg level stay at a low 27, the exp difference from the second disc encounters would easily make them catch up. But this is exactly the point: fighting a lot in the first disc might not grand much experience, but it would grant AP. So what if a player gets lvl3 spells in the first disc? I did it a few times. Its quite easy with double AP equip while fighting the monsters in Junon or Mideel. But while getting high level materia this early might seem "broken", remember that the HP and MP would still be low and the level multiplier would reduce the damage. This is though to test, I know, but try using Black Chocobo to edit saves. Try fighting the same monsters with different levels, weapons, materia and stats, so you can conceive a balanced approach.

Yeah, physical hits greatly out-power magic in terms of speed later in the game. I boosted spells a little, but because the Ultimate Weapons are fairly easy to get it pretty much kills the mod dead on Disc 3. I knew it would, but I didn't feel comfortable nerfing those weapons when people had earned them from a boss fight. The current planned solution is to move them to another set of content that's much harder than the current ones; that way I've got an excuse to make some new stuff for it (which makes up for, y'know, moving them). I considered the Death Penalty thing for a bit but they'd be hitting for paltry damage when acquired which wouldn't have gone across too well.

That was my first thought "why not make the final weapons harder to find?", but the result is the same: when you get them = no more spells. I don't know how the limitations on the hex behind the damage formulas and multipliers, I assume that they follow a ordinary hex pattern. So the max attack a weapon can have should be 255. If so, why not make the final weapons have attack stat above 100, while removing the damage multiplier, or at least trading it for another more subtle (Death Penalty, for example, which could work wonders with break damage limit).

That way players could still deal high magic damage against enemies (who would have much higher defense than magical defense) with a W-Magic or Quadramagic high level spell, while a single attack would do much less - and that should be the point. A punch to the face shouldn't hurt more than getting hit with half a dozen meteorites! This is offset by MP cost and practicability, but the game never makes us run out of MP. I don't know if you ever player Dungeon and Dragons, but that game had one thing that console RPGs never had: it made you appreciate magic. Your mage could only use half a dozen spells before drying and each one counted. Of course they hit hard and that should be the point. You shouldn't be able to cast 6 or 7 Ultimas in a single battle. But each one should hurt like the holy hell. But MP Absorb, Ethers and Magic Hammer pretty much make this pointless.

Another example: you certainly know how in FF8 nobody uses magic. Its more useful to have 100 spells junctioned to attributes than casting spells. So everybody goes on linking 100 Meteor or Ultima to STR and hitting everything with swords. But how many people have actually tried to cast Meteor with 255 MAG while on Triple? No attack can beat that. Its slow, sure. But specially if Rinoa uses this with Angel Wings... Well, 10 x 3000 x 3... It beats pretty much all limits, except for Zell's (which its a lot of busywork).

Some other thoughts:

EXP Plus in Aeris's garden is just random. Gil Plus would have been much more interesting, specially if this is the kind of mod where weapons, materia and items are expensive and can't be bought mindlessly. Also, since potions are now so much more useful, shouldn't their price increase? Same goes for tents, as they are too cheap (maybe allowing them to resurrect and heal status to justify the increased price). Or maybe having them stop recovering MP. This would certainly make magic much more interesting. Right now you can't really boost it much more, because Ethers are cheap and Tents are cheaper. So casting spells is no big deal. But if you could only recover MP with Inns or Ethers, it would make having powered spells more expensive worthwhile.

Also, some old RPGs used to have optional enemies drop items that you would only be able to buy much later, but were very tough enemies that required much preparation and tactics. Why not try this in order to give players the option of getting useful materia early on (Like Sneak Attack, Magic Counter, etc)? Of course the bosses would need to be identified or close to a save point, so that players don't get bad surprises. Or make them possible to flee.

Another idea is to have some bosses be stronger than the usual ones. In some games there are two kinds of boss themes: the regular and the "of sh!t". The song that plays when Sapphire attacks Junon would sound great against some powerful bosses.

And as for what gamers might like or dislike if you mess with the game too much, well, most people don't like big changes. The only console RPG I know that has a great hard and very hard mode is Star Ocean 2. On VH you die a lot, but since the gameplay is the greatest of its kind when it comes to customizing and planning, a seasoned player can overcome the difficulty and eventually beat the game. Not that it makes them less likely to die 100 times... But thats expected. And thats the key: people don't mind about things they're expecting. You can change the power of things or make them a little different, as long as they know them.

Personally I wouldn't have moved Beta, Aqualung and Trine. I would have make them stronger than lvl2 spells, considerably weaker than lvl 3, but with the usual advantage: multi hitting without All. People wouldn't mind that as much. As for the other huge Enemy Skills, Angel Whisper stays pretty much the same. White Wind is overpowered, but it will always be. Its the only way offensive characters can heal effectively (at least I don't have Restore on the three party members). It might be great, but it might also be crap. Depends on the user's HP. Boosting its cost to where it would stay between Cure 2 and 3 would be interesting, as Cure 3 should heal around 4K with the power boost. No character should have that much HP by the time you get Cure 3. That makes White Wind not as useful (except for the status healing thing). Big Guard is interesting, but it would be more so if you could change the duration of barriers depending on the source. For instance, Wall should last a lot longer tha the usual Barrier. And Big Guard should last a minute or so. Otherwise you can let it be like it was on the original game and target only the caster, for an high MP cost (Haste + Wall in one go). Anyway, people only use it for the haste. Barriers go away too fast. Thats why Protect Rings are worthless.

Cheers, I'll maybe throw some alpha material your way if I need a second opinion on something. But...how did you know I was a Rangers fan? D:

Please... Like there are many people from Glasgow who don't go nuts for the Rangers

 

[Travis]

This is odd.

I currently am in the Desert Prison and i have yet to get a tier 2 magic spell.

I even fight several times per area.

Idk, I think I'm close idk. Playing some more tongith.

 

[Sega Chief]

This is odd.

I currently am in the Desert Prison and i have yet to get a tier 2 magic spell.

I even fight several times per area.

Idk, I think I'm close idk. Playing some more tongith.

Hmm, maybe I was wrong. You should be okay though; if you find attacks aren't strong enough, consider using Earring for a magic boost. You should have got one from Motorball/Rubicante. Summons can close it up a bit too. How much AP do you need for tier 2 from where you are? I got them around Gongaga but I thought that might be because I was rushing through for testing.

The thing is, even if the player was lazy during first disc and skipped many fights, making the party avg level stay at a low 27, the exp difference from the second disc encounters would easily make them catch up. But this is exactly the point: fighting a lot in the first disc might not grand much experience, but it would grant AP. So what if a player gets lvl3 spells in the first disc? I did it a few times. Its quite easy with double AP equip while fighting the monsters in Junon or Mideel. But while getting high level materia this early might seem "broken", remember that the HP and MP would still be low and the level multiplier would reduce the damage. This is though to test, I know, but try using Black Chocobo to edit saves. Try fighting the same monsters with different levels, weapons, materia and stats, so you can conceive a balanced approach.

I'll need to talk to the people who've played through the mod for their thoughts on the early-game. If they enjoyed it, then it'll be staying the same. I'll be testing a few things in any case. Pre-battle AI that changes enemy stats past a certain player level was something I'd been developing. 7H offers solutions too. Feedback was generally positive going through Disc 1 so I'm reluctant to change it too much.

That was my first thought "why not make the final weapons harder to find?", but the result is the same: when you get them = no more spells. I don't know how the limitations on the hex behind the damage formulas and multipliers, I assume that they follow a ordinary hex pattern. So the max attack a weapon can have should be 255. If so, why not make the final weapons have attack stat above 100, while removing the damage multiplier, or at least trading it for another more subtle (Death Penalty, for example, which could work wonders with break damage limit).

As far as I'm aware, the Weapon attack stat combines with the Strength stat to form the actual attack stat for battle which itself caps at 255 (limiting how effective a weapon with a regular damage formula can be past a certain point). The Ultimate Weapons themselves use special formulas that could only be changed using hex-editing. The Death Penalty effect makes sense on paper but I think it'd take too long to power them up, even going into a new game+. What I originally considered doing was using the earlier weapon effects like Yoshiyuki but I stuck with the default effects to be safe. But considering the effect they have on the mod's balance it might be unavoidable to change them, even if moved to later on.

That way players could still deal high magic damage against enemies (who would have much higher defense than magical defense) with a W-Magic or Quadramagic high level spell, while a single attack would do much less - and that should be the point. A punch to the face shouldn't hurt more than getting hit with half a dozen meteorites! This is offset by MP cost and practicability, but the game never makes us run out of MP. I don't know if you ever player Dungeon and Dragons, but that game had one thing that console RPGs never had: it made you appreciate magic. Your mage could only use half a dozen spells before drying and each one counted. Of course they hit hard and that should be the point. You shouldn't be able to cast 6 or 7 Ultimas in a single battle. But each one should hurt like the holy hell. But MP Absorb, Ethers and Magic Hammer pretty much make this pointless.

Another example: you certainly know how in FF8 nobody uses magic. Its more useful to have 100 spells junctioned to attributes than casting spells. So everybody goes on linking 100 Meteor or Ultima to STR and hitting everything with swords. But how many people have actually tried to cast Meteor with 255 MAG while on Triple? No attack can beat that. Its slow, sure. But specially if Rinoa uses this with Angel Wings... Well, 10 x 3000 x 3... It beats pretty much all limits, except for Zell's (which its a lot of busywork)

Problem is, there's plenty of ways to hit multiple times with physical attacks in this game. Even makeshift combos like Mug + Added Cut can quickly get out of hand and that's not to mention multi-hit limits like Omnislash, Doom of the Living, etc or 4x-Cut. But there's another problem, this one mechanical. The physical attack formula has an inverse relationship with the magical one. At the beginning, when base stats are low, a spell with base power of 8 will hit for about 200 damage while a physical attack with a base power of, say, 16 will hit for 40-50 damage on the same base stat. But as the game goes on, that balance swings. That needs to be taken into consideration when balancing spells and attacks. Multi-hit Materia doesn't simplify things, unfortunately.

And yeah, I've tried that; it killed my FF8 'challenge':

EXP Plus in Aeris's garden is just random. Gil Plus would have been much more interesting, specially if this is the kind of mod where weapons, materia and items are expensive and can't be bought mindlessly. Also, since potions are now so much more useful, shouldn't their price increase? Same goes for tents, as they are too cheap (maybe allowing them to resurrect and heal status to justify the increased price). Or maybe having them stop recovering MP. This would certainly make magic much more interesting. Right now you can't really boost it much more, because Ethers are cheap and Tents are cheaper. So casting spells is no big deal. But if you could only recover MP with Inns or Ethers, it would make having powered spells more expensive worthwhile.

The EXP Plus was originally guarded by a boss fight but it was a terrible fight so I removed it. I actually keep EXP Plus there for my own reasons; I hate when a party member falls behind in levels so that helps me keep things consistent. I can see people using it to just bolster Cloud as high as possible but it stays where it is (that's the one concession I'm making for myself  ). The boosted gil alone should be enough to buy most things you need, though I've seen a player not have enough to buy much so that'll depend on approach again (and what you buy earlier, though I give the player some expensive early Materia like Heal and Earth which means they don't need to necessarily buy it in Kalm).

Item effects (as used from the menu) is hard-coded to the .exe while in-battle effects are determined by the kernel and easier to edit. Limiting MP might have the opposite effect, making players very conservative with magic. Ease of play is the concern there, particularly when facing off against unfamiliar enemies and bosses where MP consumption could be high.

I had optional bosses in here once, guarding certain chests and Materia. They were mostly relegated to new random enemies though. I'll consider that idea though because it's quite interesting; my only concern is that people might 'break their back' trying to beat these optional bosses and become discouraged. If I make it clear it's optional then that might do the trick; Keeper was supposed to be optional but most people beat him when they see him.

And as for what gamers might like or dislike if you mess with the game too much, well, most people don't like big changes. The only console RPG I know that has a great hard and very hard mode is Star Ocean 2. On VH you die a lot, but since the gameplay is the greatest of its kind when it comes to customizing and planning, a seasoned player can overcome the difficulty and eventually beat the game. Not that it makes them less likely to die 100 times... But thats expected. And thats the key: people don't mind about things they're expecting. You can change the power of things or make them a little different, as long as they know them.

About that, the Hardcore mod is basically this. There will be a lot of game overs, but learning their weaknesses and then coming up with a strategy will yield results. Outwardly, it can seem too much but it's a deceptively well-balanced mod. You can even win with a Lv.1 party so long as your planning and preparation are sound:

Personally I wouldn't have moved Beta, Aqualung and Trine. I would have make them stronger than lvl2 spells, considerably weaker than lvl 3, but with the usual advantage: multi hitting without All. People wouldn't mind that as much. As for the other huge Enemy Skills, Angel Whisper stays pretty much the same. White Wind is overpowered, but it will always be. Its the only way offensive characters can heal effectively (at least I don't have Restore on the three party members). It might be great, but it might also be crap. Depends on the user's HP. Boosting its cost to where it would stay between Cure 2 and 3 would be interesting, as Cure 3 should heal around 4K with the power boost. No character should have that much HP by the time you get Cure 3. That makes White Wind not as useful (except for the status healing thing). Big Guard is interesting, but it would be more so if you could change the duration of barriers depending on the source. For instance, Wall should last a lot longer tha the usual Barrier. And Big Guard should last a minute or so. Otherwise you can let it be like it was on the original game and target only the caster, for an high MP cost (Haste + Wall in one go). Anyway, people only use it for the haste. Barriers go away too fast. Thats why Protect Rings are worthless.

That right there is crazy talk. The second you get Beta/Aqua/Trine (in the form you described), it's effectively GG not just for Tier 2 spells and summons at that level but also for the enemies that are going to be decimated by it. I could make them harder to obtain by buffing the enemies that carry them, but it's only delaying the inevitable. And I can say from experience that for all the short-comings of Big Guard and White Wind, they're still way too strong for the Magic spells (W.Wind ignores MBarrier because it's a 'set' value, for instance). Barriers are also incredibly useful because their damage reduction is %-based and stacks with everything else; not using them is like crippling yourself; Haste is only useful if you're getting a turn advantage.

Please... Like there are many people from Glasgow who don't go nuts for the Rangers

Hmmmmm, I supposed you had a 50/50 chance. Or did you roll for intuition?

 

[Travis]

I'm have 2000-3000 AP to go on most of my materia to get to Bolt2, Ice 2, Fire 2, etc.

Cloud is already like level 28 though.

So idk what the issue is.

 

[LetCreativityPlay]

Alright, so first off the AP requirements were only adjusted slightly. You'll probably get Tier 2 Magic spells around about these areas depending on your approach.

Etc etc...

Conclusion: Use Magic spells, they're really useful now. Maybe too useful.

When you stated all this magic stuff, most of this was already included in the mod originally or at least up to the July 12th update right? Or will some of the changes be part of a new update?

 

[Loseless]

Coin tosses are underrated

Still about Beta, Trine and Aqualung: If Beta's attack power is 3 3,375 x base, Fire2 1,25 x base and Fire3 4 x base, then you could reduce Beta to 1 or something like that. It would still be stronger against multi targets than a regular Fire 2, plus non reflectable. But raising its MP cost would make up for it. That way Beta would only be useful against multiple enemies, falling behind Fire2.

The same could be done but with Fire3 if you think Beta's more suited to fill the gap between Fire2 and 3. But you would have to power up the hell's snake so it would only be beatable by the end of the disc (give or take).

But getting back to the barriers, is there a way to increase their duration? One of the best combos I can think of is pairing Sneak Attack with Wall. But if Wall lasts less than a Summon animation... Well, there's just no point to it.

 

[Sega Chief]

I'm have 2000-3000 AP to go on most of my materia to get to Bolt2, Ice 2, Fire 2, etc.

Cloud is already like level 28 though.

So idk what the issue is.

It's not so much an issue as it is a miscalculation on my part. I think I might have rolled the reduced EXP/AP scene.bin out already when fixing another problem (namely Lost Number). Looks like Tier 2 is unlocking too late though. I'll make an adjustment before the update today (or tomorrow).

When you stated all this magic stuff, most of this was already included in the mod originally or at least up to the July 12th update right? Or will some of the changes be part of a new update?

Some alterations are being made to try and fix Disc 2's balance. I made some adjustments to the Disc 2, Extra, and sidequest bosses as well, they should be much meatier in terms of challenge (Carry Armor in particular; he wrecked my test-team). Source farming is being replaced by a rank-up system where the player can access a special room that dishes out Sources and maybe equipment when certain events are completed (not sure what the criteria will be, it depends what the flevel script can be made to check for). This means that Morph will become available again from Temple, and a second unmissable Morph is being placed in case people are past that point already.

Still about Beta, Trine and Aqualung: If Beta's attack power is 3 3,375 x base, Fire2 1,25 x base and Fire3 4 x base, then you could reduce Beta to 1 or something like that. It would still be stronger against multi targets than a regular Fire 2, plus non reflectable. But raising its MP cost would make up for it. That way Beta would only be useful against multiple enemies, falling behind Fire2.

The same could be done but with Fire3 if you think Beta's more suited to fill the gap between Fire2 and 3. But you would have to power up the hell's snake so it would only be beatable by the end of the disc (give or take).

I'm not so sure if it works that way, a spell either hits everything with no loss or it has Toggle (where it loses damage over a spread). This is straightforward for monster attacks, but for the player Toggle seems to be linked with All Materia (all the magic spells stored in the kernel come with Toggle checked). Raising the MP cost wouldn't make up for it really, MP is quite easy to replenish and it'd definitely last over three characters going from one Inn to the next.

But getting back to the barriers, is there a way to increase their duration? One of the best combos I can think of is pairing Sneak Attack with Wall. But if Wall lasts less than a Summon animation... Well, there's just no point to it.

Barriers' duration can be extended by setting your ATB to Wait on a slow speed. They lose a lot of effectiveness if your ATB is set to Active, but a lot of statuses suffer the same problem; Shield is virtually useless on Active ATB Full-Speed for instance. If you're using buffs then Wait is your best bet, if you're planning to get rid of an enemy's buffs faster then Active is the way to go; your ATB setting should be taken into consideration when setting up for a boss.

And Summon Animations halt gameplay if I remember right, forcing Wait even on Active ATB while their animations play out. Shouldn't be losing Barrier charge there, but I could be wrong.

 

[Loseless]

Yes, you're indeed right about the barriers. I had forgotten about the summon wait thing. Nevertheless, even with wait ATB barriers go down too quick. I was always a complaint of mine. In other FFs this was done better.

And regarding the update that will fix the AP for levels, will that change the amount of AP earned or the AP required to level up? I'm here rooting for the second

 

[Sega Chief]

It'll be adjustments to the amount needed on the Materia.

 

[lappers84]

I thought the ap required for level up was pretty good - in vanilla ff7 I would have tier 2 spells by the end of midgar - but because of the slightly increased difficulty of enemies (so I didn't grind nearly as much) I think I got my level 2 spells by about junon or so.

Also I've just started disc 3 - Is there an order in which I can unlock the side quests (do I need to beat any of the weapons first, or chocobo raising?)

 

[Sega Chief]

Most of it is unlocked when you reach the bottom of the North Cave and receive the phone call from the Highwind. There used to be a loose progression, but it'll be altered fairly soon and most things can be attempted in any order. It used to be that the KOTR cave became available quite late but because Morph is being made freely available again (I'm arranging a second unmissable Morph for players who are past the Temple of the Ancients) it's now available once you get a Gold Chocobo. The only progression is:

Ruby/Emerald -> Kalm Traveler bosses -> Tyrant Extra Battle

Ultimate Weapon -> Nycto Dragon Extra Battle

All character-specific sidequests + Tyrant, Nycto, and Abyss -> Last Extra Battle (it's displayed as  a line of ?'s but that creates an emoticon on Qhimm).

That's about it. However, if you downloaded and used the regular music flevel patch, though, then there's a fix pending for the sidequests (some of my debug lines were left in one of the field screens). The flevel that comes with the installer should be fine though. The update will be out tomorrow it's looking like.