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BlitzNCS
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Is it just me, or is seifer showing off the team avalanche patch more than he is his stupid translation thing?
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ultima espio
Guest
I think he should have just left the original translation as it was.....
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BlitzNCS
Guest
I don't think there's a single person on this forum who doesn't think that.
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Tekkie.X
Guest
Most of the re-translation is fine, but some bits just didn't need it or don't sound right.
Mog > Moguri, doesn't sound right, more so considering they've been called Moogles/Mogs in many other english language FF games.
Remove > Degeon, keeping Remove or using Banish or Dismiss would have been better, Degeon isn't a "real" word, it doesn't sound like a word used for taking someone out of a fight.
Mega All > Omni All, Omni pretty much means all anyway, so he's basically made it All All.
Slash all > Cut all, Barrett and Vincent use guns that neither slash nor cut, Attack All would have been a better choice there.
He's used a lot of literal translation, in many ways it's just returned results that mean the exact same thing as it already did.
Literal Translations from Japanese are not always a good thing, liberties were taken in the original translation for a reason, it actually made more sense.
All power to him for doing the project, I just disagree on a few of his choices, plenty of it makes sense, just not all of it.
Mog > Moguri, doesn't sound right, more so considering they've been called Moogles/Mogs in many other english language FF games.
Remove > Degeon, keeping Remove or using Banish or Dismiss would have been better, Degeon isn't a "real" word, it doesn't sound like a word used for taking someone out of a fight.
Mega All > Omni All, Omni pretty much means all anyway, so he's basically made it All All.
Slash all > Cut all, Barrett and Vincent use guns that neither slash nor cut, Attack All would have been a better choice there.
He's used a lot of literal translation, in many ways it's just returned results that mean the exact same thing as it already did.
Literal Translations from Japanese are not always a good thing, liberties were taken in the original translation for a reason, it actually made more sense.
All power to him for doing the project, I just disagree on a few of his choices, plenty of it makes sense, just not all of it.
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Timu Sumisu
Guest
although im not a fan of most of the changes he's made, i wont knock that the game could be "cleaned" up. However, a very direct/literal translation isnt really the answer. more along the lines of just clearing up things that could use change, as they dont make much sense. eg. typos, attuning things to canon, but by all means, leaving "this guy are sick"
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Caliman
Guest
I think he should have just left the original translation as it was.....
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Please tell me what you didn't actually understand by the words "Retranslation Project" or "Faithful to Japanese Game" or "More accurate" ?
The new FMV are better quality, I think they should have kept authentic 320*224
The new fonts look too good, I think we should go back to the old as they were.
The new models are too good, I think we should keep to how Barrett actually looks
I don't think there should be a PC version, the PSX version is the only proper way of playing the game
If I applied this logic elsewhere we wouldn't have qhimm's.
Moving on to constructive criticism
a. Best off signing up to my forum and bringing issues there if you have them since, I will shortly be dissppearing from here
b.
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Mog > Moguri, doesn't sound right, more so considering they've been called Moogles/Mogs in many other english language FF games.
>>>Canon has been thrown out. If you nread the link you will see why it is called Moguri. Moogle and Mog are mistakes. The japanese chose the name from their own words and no one has the right to go against that. It is their name. When you create a work of fiction what you choose is yours. No one has the right to butcher it.
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Remove > Degeon, keeping Remove or using Banish or Dismiss would have been better, Degeon isn't a "real" word, it doesn't sound like a word used for taking someone out of a fight.
>>>Degeon is De dungeon. It has been a staple of the series before and it is consistent in Japanese version too.
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Final_Fantasy_V_Enemy_Abilities
Although this is definately one I will be bringing up again with the team and others, make sure it is accurate. It certainly isn't Exit or banish or X zone.
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Mega All > Omni All, Omni pretty much means all anyway, so he's basically made it All All.
>>>I didn't make it all all. The Japanese is literally "All all" or "Whole All" Omni All is an excellent name for it and is completely accurate to the Japanese.
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Slash all > Cut all, Barrett and Vincent use guns that neither slash nor cut, Attack All would have been a better choice there.
>>>If the Japanese had meant that they would have used it. The Japanese are not stupid, they know what cut is and what attack is and they know the difference. The names are all designed for cloud. There is no mistake here.
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If you have any other queries, you know where I am. And believe me when I say, I have had 3 japanese people working with me on every single change with others looking through the document and raising issues. Nothing has been gone into half assed and some things went to a vote.
To author of this thread:
If you like canon however flawed, or you don't like accuracy, or you don't like this mod, do not install it. No one is forcing you. Some people appreciate the work that is going into this and the dedication I am giving the project and respect for the original vision. Pathetic threads like this reflect on you badly.
The bottom line is this: This is a Japanese game and was written by people who did not intend what has now become canon in English. I am restoring it to how it should be. Please keep your insane fanboyism to yourself and remember that this is a game, not the Bible.
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Please tell me what you didn't actually understand by the words "Retranslation Project" or "Faithful to Japanese Game" or "More accurate" ?
The new FMV are better quality, I think they should have kept authentic 320*224
The new fonts look too good, I think we should go back to the old as they were.
The new models are too good, I think we should keep to how Barrett actually looks
I don't think there should be a PC version, the PSX version is the only proper way of playing the game
If I applied this logic elsewhere we wouldn't have qhimm's.
Moving on to constructive criticism
a. Best off signing up to my forum and bringing issues there if you have them since, I will shortly be dissppearing from here
b.
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Mog > Moguri, doesn't sound right, more so considering they've been called Moogles/Mogs in many other english language FF games.
>>>Canon has been thrown out. If you nread the link you will see why it is called Moguri. Moogle and Mog are mistakes. The japanese chose the name from their own words and no one has the right to go against that. It is their name. When you create a work of fiction what you choose is yours. No one has the right to butcher it.
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Remove > Degeon, keeping Remove or using Banish or Dismiss would have been better, Degeon isn't a "real" word, it doesn't sound like a word used for taking someone out of a fight.
>>>Degeon is De dungeon. It has been a staple of the series before and it is consistent in Japanese version too.
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Final_Fantasy_V_Enemy_Abilities
Although this is definately one I will be bringing up again with the team and others, make sure it is accurate. It certainly isn't Exit or banish or X zone.
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Mega All > Omni All, Omni pretty much means all anyway, so he's basically made it All All.
>>>I didn't make it all all. The Japanese is literally "All all" or "Whole All" Omni All is an excellent name for it and is completely accurate to the Japanese.
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Slash all > Cut all, Barrett and Vincent use guns that neither slash nor cut, Attack All would have been a better choice there.
>>>If the Japanese had meant that they would have used it. The Japanese are not stupid, they know what cut is and what attack is and they know the difference. The names are all designed for cloud. There is no mistake here.
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If you have any other queries, you know where I am. And believe me when I say, I have had 3 japanese people working with me on every single change with others looking through the document and raising issues. Nothing has been gone into half assed and some things went to a vote.
To author of this thread:
If you like canon however flawed, or you don't like accuracy, or you don't like this mod, do not install it. No one is forcing you. Some people appreciate the work that is going into this and the dedication I am giving the project and respect for the original vision. Pathetic threads like this reflect on you badly.
The bottom line is this: This is a Japanese game and was written by people who did not intend what has now become canon in English. I am restoring it to how it should be. Please keep your insane fanboyism to yourself and remember that this is a game, not the Bible.
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Qhimm
Guest
I think no one is questioning any of these things, except perhaps that "more literal translation" would be equal to "more accurate" or "more faithful". Furthermore, as stated many times elsewhere, no one is questioning that the existing PC translation could stand to be improved. In fact, plenty of people are saying that many of your changes are improvements.
Actually, that last one is pretty much your logic when it comes to the translation. You don't agree with some of the choices of the PC translation, and your conclusion is that any liberties taken during translation can only serve to lessen its quality compared to the original. It is at this point that you will find people disagreeing with you.
Personally, I would argue that if you want the exact original intended Japanese experience, you are pretty much resigned to playing the game in Japanese, and first becoming well versed in Japanese language and culture as necessary. For your translation to be experienced they way you intend it, this requirement unfortunately doesn't go away, as literal translations sometimes won't make sense unless you know Japanese. I will get back to this.
Whoa there, steady boy. First of all I believe translation enjoys special status under copyright law, under which Square were the ones to commission an official translation and you are the one illegally butchering the original work. Second, Moogle and Mog are also their choices for their English version of the story, which is certainly of no lesser value than your elevated opinion. Moguri is a clever Japanese word play combined from their words for "mole" and "bat" (whose traits the Moguri share), with the added bonus of sounding like "Mowgli", strengthening existing connotations for child-like things and animals. How much of this comes through when you as an English speaker see the word "Moguri"?
Translation usually entails conveying the original meaning as much as possible, not the original spelling or whatever (that might more closely be called a transcription). I personally consider both Mog and Moogle to be quite good translations, seeing as how you will quickly give up conveying all of "mole-like, bat-like, small child-like thing" with a single word in English -- both Mog and Moogle borrow from the original Moguri, but turn it into a more natural-sounding word for English-speakers with a "quirky" feel to it. And apparently Square-Enix agrees, considering they're sticking with the translation despite ample opportunities to change it for something better (c.f. Aeris / Aerith).
And yet time after time professional translators opt for exactly "Banish" or similar. Your opinion on this matter comes through as highly arrogant, arguing that you alone are fit to decide what an "accurate" translation is, even in the face of heavy disagreements from most people you mention it to.
The critical point in this kind of translation (which you seem to be missing) is "will people understand this word when they see it?". "Degeon" in particular apparently requires you look it up in a specialized encyclopedia before you understand its meaning, which I must admit sounds like a textbook example of a failed translation, especially when its intended use case is to be easily understandable in a small game action menu.
Unfortunately, the Japanese word for "cut" has the extended general meaning of "cut down" as in attack, damage or kill, something its English counterpart doesn't share to the same extent. It also has the benefit of being instantly understandable to any Japanese (including kids) and is shorter than the more generic words for "attack", and thus will more easily fit into the menu. So "cut" in Japanese is indeed a generic term and is not designed specifically for Cloud -- you wouldn't use it specifically for guns, but it is definitely appropriate to describe a generic attack in a world where a majority of weapons are blades. Of course, the original translation makes the same "mistake" of going for the more literal term even though the generic one matches the use case better.
I have no doubt you've had access to good Japanese resources, but your suggested translations makes me wonder if you had access to any good Japanese-English translation resources, as opposed to people who know how to use dictionaries. People who know Japanese don't necessarily know how to translate well into English -- my mother tongue is Swedish and I know a fair amount of English, that doesn't mean I can translate either of those well into Japanese. I can certainly respect your willingness to preserve any names as much and as precisely as possible, but it's way too easy to go too far with this reasoning, and you end up with something that is really only meaningful to you yourselves (since you translated it, you already have all the necessary background information).
My heartfelt recommendation if you really want to improve the translation is to utilize test subjects; people with no Japanese skill that have as little background information as possible (at best, barely having played the game), and running proposed translations past them. The more of the intended meaning they figure out without you telling them, the better the translation is.
Let me clarify that I am in no way saying your work is bad. On the contrary, I would love to play through the game with your patch in effect, because it would let me see various Japanese details more easily than playing through the Japanese version. However, the reason it would work is because in my head I'm translating the various oddities back into Japanese, where it suddenly makes sense. To an English-speaker that didn't take part in your background research, this can't happen, and so I fear your translations will look considerably stranger than any "butchering" in the existing version.
I'm sorry, but unless you're actually in frequent contact with the original FF7 writers, this is just plain arrogant. Square commissioned and approved the original English translation, which should at least account for something. In hindsight it can certainly be improved, and you are free to translate it differently (though not necessarily release it, see copyright issue above), but to put forth that you alone know "how it should be" would essentially disqualify you from any translation work in the professional world. The one who treats the subject matter as the Bible-whose-Word-must-not-be-corrupted-lest-you-face-the-Wrath-of-the-Lord seems to be you, and the irony of you accusing your more liberal-spirited (not to mention more polite) opposition of that very thing is enough to cause aneurysms.
If you're aiming for "accurate" in the sense that "minimum amount of detail lost, even if it means requiring people to be familiar with Japanese in order to understand it", then you're on the right track and can safely ignore any criticism from here. The problem is that most people perceive your goal as making a perfect translation that conveys additional meaningful detail that was lost in the existing translation, while still making perfect sense to people who only know English. That is not where you are heading, and I think you can avoid a lot of criticism by being more clear with your goals and being a bit more humble about the whole thing.
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Caliman
Guest
It isn't arrogant in the slightest. If something is written in japanese and translates directly to english I am afraid that is what it should be within reason.
"Spring gun clip" makes no sense either, and loses the whole delight of where they got the name from "spriggan" Likewise, nearly every single japanese person I have spoke to had accepted the overwhelming list of changes we have made. FF7 isn't supposed to be dumbed down so that any fool can understand every single thing. One look at the weapon and armour list will tell you that even in the original english translation some things simply make no sense. If we went down that route where would it end? odin called "horse man" Ramu "Bolt Baddie" I mean, some things have to require knowledge and learning and getting off your ass and learning the culture, Japanese included.
I refuse to accept that not understanding the origin of something is an excuse not to change it. That simply isn't how it works. A person gets off his ass and goes and researches it. Google is right there for them. Mideel means nothing, Midhir does. Same with 100 other changes.
It seems odd that you are arguing "cut" with me when it was already in the original. I am not actually changing that and yet I am still getting panned for it.
If they had meant attack they would have used strike surely? They do in numerous other places and they also use attack. The materia is made for cloud. The description reads for everyone. I can only go off the Japanese and the japanese says it is and so it is. Not to mention people more qualified to talk about these things tha us agree with it.
On moguri, it is a name. It was given a name and that name stands. I don't care 1 iota for what the english translators thought or think. A work of fiction retains its roots and only the autjor of that name is alloweed to change it. In FF7 they accidentally named it "mog" and then changed to moogle, so FF7 was wrong anyway....but moogle does not convey mole bat at all...so even if one were to argue with my choice of keeping moguri, moogle means sh*t all and is a poor choice. Fact.
You mention "professional" translators, have a look at that document at my forum. It is anything but professsional. FF7 has one of the worst translations vs budget I have ever seen.
Again, I sum up with saying that if someone does not like it they have the choice not to install, but I make no apologies for changing it to what it actually is in japanese. There is no argument here and if that makes me arrogant then so be it.
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If you're aiming for "accurate" in the sense that "minimum amount of detail lost, even if it means requiring people to be familiar with Japanese in order to understand it", then you're on the right track and can safely ignore any criticism from here. The problem is that most people perceive your goal as making a perfect translation that conveys additional meaningful detail that was lost in the existing translation, while still making perfect sense to people who only know English. That is not where you are heading, and I think you can avoid a lot of criticism by being more clear with your goals and being a bit more humble about the whole thing.
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I totally agree and will try to convey it better. I try to be humble but I am attacked in threads such as this (OP) with no thoght at all and so obv i get defensive.
Also, there is no such thing as a perfect translation as you know. I set out to geta round 95% and I think we are achieving that.... the 5% loss is something I can tolerate. And if I appear more hostile than usual here, then I apologise. I have been up all night
edit: I will bring this cut business up and make sure there is a concensus on it. Your point may be valid. Your post was well made, and I apologise if the tone of my reply sounds bad.
"Spring gun clip" makes no sense either, and loses the whole delight of where they got the name from "spriggan" Likewise, nearly every single japanese person I have spoke to had accepted the overwhelming list of changes we have made. FF7 isn't supposed to be dumbed down so that any fool can understand every single thing. One look at the weapon and armour list will tell you that even in the original english translation some things simply make no sense. If we went down that route where would it end? odin called "horse man" Ramu "Bolt Baddie" I mean, some things have to require knowledge and learning and getting off your ass and learning the culture, Japanese included.
I refuse to accept that not understanding the origin of something is an excuse not to change it. That simply isn't how it works. A person gets off his ass and goes and researches it. Google is right there for them. Mideel means nothing, Midhir does. Same with 100 other changes.
It seems odd that you are arguing "cut" with me when it was already in the original. I am not actually changing that and yet I am still getting panned for it.
If they had meant attack they would have used strike surely? They do in numerous other places and they also use attack. The materia is made for cloud. The description reads for everyone. I can only go off the Japanese and the japanese says it is and so it is. Not to mention people more qualified to talk about these things tha us agree with it.
On moguri, it is a name. It was given a name and that name stands. I don't care 1 iota for what the english translators thought or think. A work of fiction retains its roots and only the autjor of that name is alloweed to change it. In FF7 they accidentally named it "mog" and then changed to moogle, so FF7 was wrong anyway....but moogle does not convey mole bat at all...so even if one were to argue with my choice of keeping moguri, moogle means sh*t all and is a poor choice. Fact.
You mention "professional" translators, have a look at that document at my forum. It is anything but professsional. FF7 has one of the worst translations vs budget I have ever seen.
Again, I sum up with saying that if someone does not like it they have the choice not to install, but I make no apologies for changing it to what it actually is in japanese. There is no argument here and if that makes me arrogant then so be it.
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If you're aiming for "accurate" in the sense that "minimum amount of detail lost, even if it means requiring people to be familiar with Japanese in order to understand it", then you're on the right track and can safely ignore any criticism from here. The problem is that most people perceive your goal as making a perfect translation that conveys additional meaningful detail that was lost in the existing translation, while still making perfect sense to people who only know English. That is not where you are heading, and I think you can avoid a lot of criticism by being more clear with your goals and being a bit more humble about the whole thing.
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I totally agree and will try to convey it better. I try to be humble but I am attacked in threads such as this (OP) with no thoght at all and so obv i get defensive.
Also, there is no such thing as a perfect translation as you know. I set out to geta round 95% and I think we are achieving that.... the 5% loss is something I can tolerate. And if I appear more hostile than usual here, then I apologise. I have been up all night
edit: I will bring this cut business up and make sure there is a concensus on it. Your point may be valid. Your post was well made, and I apologise if the tone of my reply sounds bad.
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BlitzNCS
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By making this thread, I was pretty much just pointing out that the last minute of the video was completely pointless. This, and the fact that the Team Avalanche patch is installed, it just looks to me as though you're trying to advertise the video with all the new hi-res stuff. Fair enough, I shouldn't have called it stupid, I didn't really mean to attack the translation project itself. (although, as you could probably tell, I'm one for keeping FF7 Neo-original, and I think some of the stuff in that translation is just totally not needed.)
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Caliman
Guest
Thankyou. yes, you are right, it is advertising mods too. I should have made this clear. I wanted to make people feel more passion for the game. Make them think "wow ff7 is getting made better" and then coming to qhimms. I don't see anything wrong with that...I think getting people involved with this game and seeing that a ps3 remake isnt the be all and end all is a great thing. There are people out there who just don't know how good we can make it here on PC...even if it will never compare to a full rerelease.
The issue with what you have said in the latter is, if I start choosing what to keep and what to get rid of, I am biased. It just doesn't work. So the only items that were not to the japanese were ones that simply sounded awful or didnt work. Cure was kept, Omnislash was kept for example. No one wanted to keep some of these names in tact more than me. I thought Aeris sounded miles better than Aerith but this simply isn't my work, it is Kitase, Nojima, Nomura, Sakaguchi
I will certainly look into Qhimm's "cut" thing and if there is truth to it, that will be changed to strike or attack.
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BlitzNCS
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I see a problem with it. You insult the entire community over here in the youtube comments, and then you say you want people to come here and use the mods we make etc. Contradict much?
Yeah, if this was a proper retranslation, I'd think some of it were ok, such as weapon names etc. (Don't get me wrong, i still wouldn't use it)
But it's pretty clear to me that stuff like "midgar zolom" should definately be kept intact, instead of made into an unreadable blur of letters, just for precision japanese translation. And japanese, as I understand, isn't very accurate for words that are supposed to be english.
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Caliman
Guest
No it doesn't contradict. The people I have criticised directly are 2. For the most part I respect the modders here and that is why I have directed people to Qhimm's albeit under no illusion of the trolls and the fruit loop admin here. I quite clearly state "few" are problems here. That isn't insulting "entire community". You are seeing things that aren't there, a common problem on forums.
As for midgardsormr...it seems that you have not done good research
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Midgardsormr_(Final_Fantasy_XII)
You see, the translators themselves have corrected their mistake in titles after VII. Midgardsormr is a norse monster and is 100% correct./ It is as correct as Odin.
Or do you want me to call Odin Ozine? I guess we could call Ramu, Ramesses II
If you are going to criticise what I have done, at least deploy a little research and logic. Your criticism of Midgardsormr is way way off the ball.
As for midgardsormr...it seems that you have not done good research
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Midgardsormr_(Final_Fantasy_XII)
You see, the translators themselves have corrected their mistake in titles after VII. Midgardsormr is a norse monster and is 100% correct./ It is as correct as Odin.
Or do you want me to call Odin Ozine? I guess we could call Ramu, Ramesses II
If you are going to criticise what I have done, at least deploy a little research and logic. Your criticism of Midgardsormr is way way off the ball.
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BlitzNCS
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Well, all I read was "the community is screwed over", so, yeah. That's definately there, no doubt, I just failed to see the "By a few" part sorry.
Anyway, I'mma stop arguing now, I'm bad at it. I just think that some of the "bad translation" actually gives FF7 a nice little twist of originality.
sorry.Anyway, I'mma stop arguing now, I'm bad at it. I just think that some of the "bad translation" actually gives FF7 a nice little twist of originality.
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Caliman
Guest
Oh so do I....I actually prefer different naming to established things sometimesWell, all I read was "the community is screwed over", so, yeah. That's definately there, no doubt, I just failed to see the "By a few" part
Anyway, I'mma stop arguing now, I'm bad at it. I just think that some of the "bad translation" actually gives FF7 a nice little twist of originality.
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Jari
Guest
O hai, Seifer. Bai, Seifer. ;D
You really are a pathetic creature. Keep registering and I'll make a nice little subforum filled with your escapades. You know, like the one Hermoor has. I doubt you'd like that, considering how much you like to edit your posts afterwards to make yourself look less of an ass.
TLS sure has plenty of good material for it. ;D
You really are a pathetic creature. Keep registering and I'll make a nice little subforum filled with your escapades. You know, like the one Hermoor has. I doubt you'd like that, considering how much you like to edit your posts afterwards to make yourself look less of an ass.
TLS sure has plenty of good material for it. ;D
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Bosola
Guest
Funny. I always thought a 'lifetime ban' meant 'stay the **** out'. Must have made a mistake somewhere.
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Prince Lex
Guest
Yes. Clearly he's translated it into something else.
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Bosola
Guest
CARE THREE!
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Kudistos Megistos
Guest
CARAGA!
On a side-note, WTF were the FF translators thinking when they first translated the spell as "cure" in English? It's especially funny that this is called "cure" and status restoring materia is called "heal" in FF7. They got those two things the wrong way around This is one case where it would have made more sense for the translation to be less literal; FFS, one cures illnesses and heals wounds, not the other way around!
(well, most of the time)
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Prince Lex
Guest
Thats a fair point, I'd never really thought about that.CARAGA!
On a side-note, WTF were the FF translators thinking when they first translated the spell as "cure" in English? It's especially funny that this is called "cure" and status restoring materia is called "heal" in FF7. They got those two things the wrong way around This is one case where it would have made more sense for the translation to be less literal; FFS, one cures illnesses and heals wounds, not the other way around!
On the side of a side-note - I don't think I've ever used Poisona, Esuna or Resist in FF7. Items are far more handy. And am I right in saying that all materia doesn't work with Esuna and Resist?
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