Ohh yeah!

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Dont drink and debate :D

FFXII has terrible characters, confusing and ridiculous story line and a main character whos just ... uhm not really male. I found xii to be almost as messed up as xiii while x is one of my favorites ever.
 
XII is a great game to play for the gameplay (when the dungeons aren't busy being Straight Line Zone, which is sometimes), and the gambit system is hella cool... but I have to agree about the story. I didn't care for the story in X, I thought it was over the top and kind of a mess, but at least it was there. XII's story was like 90% filler.
 
I agree with all if not most of your guys points.  It was said for XII that they wanted the main character Vaan to give you a feel of you being in that kind of story.  Good thing they only kept that around just for XII.  I felt XII could of been way better if they just didn't wing it.  Also in order to defeat a certain boss you had to pick up an item from regular enemies which was so freaking lame.  How am I suppose to know you have to do that.
 
Haha, pretty off topic here.

Best scene from any rpg... Hmmm... I must have had one in mind when I started this but I can't remember.

Dont drink and debate :D

FFXII has terrible characters, confusing and ridiculous story line and a main character whos just ... uhm not really male. I found xii to be almost as messed up as xiii while x is one of my favorites ever.
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Do I smell fanboyism getting in the way here?
I recognise both as good games (not 13). When calling 10 great and 12 shitty at the same time there have to be something clouding ones judgement.

Most FFs have some confusing stuff that don't makes sense. I bet if I asked a FF10 fan what the deal is with Tidus I would could get a 10 page wall of text answer. And (I don't know if it counts) FF10-2 messed up the story really good. So, Tidus is a dream of the fayth who wants the dream to end? How is he manifested as a real person? As I understand it, the fayth based Tidus on the villain from FF10-2. Then shouldn't his name be the same as that villain? And what about that hot gf summoner that villain had? Did the fayth forget about her or did Auron pick up Tidus before he met her?
The point I'm trying to make, I guess, is that there will always be things you simply have to accept in stories like these. The more of the ludicrous stuff you manage to swallow, the more appreciative the story gets.
 
I hate FFX-2 story (I haven't met anyone who likes it)... You can't use that to knock X, any more than you can use a FFVII spin off to sully the story of VII
 
Fair enough, but it wasn't the point. The point was there is confusing stuff that don't makes sense in both games, and in most, if not all FFs.
 
I AM a fanboy of Final Fantasy. But the games enix come up with are not Final Fantasy they just call it that. I dont know any person with an iq>20 who doesnt hate x-2(In fact I dont know anyone like that). Thats the first game not developed by Squaresoft but squareenix. Cant be coincidential...

The assertion that one has to like 12 if x is good is pointless to me. I dont see where they belong together. X is like the old games just with voices and better graphics.

XII continued what X-2 started and what XIII got "perfect": Messed up battle system, stupid characters and a storyline not to care about. Enix is diabolic they kill Final Fantasy, the whole compilation of ff7 is a rapture of my beautiful childhood memories.
 
Haha, pretty off topic here.

Best scene from any rpg... Hmmm... I must have had one in mind when I started this but I can't remember.

Do I smell fanboyism getting in the way here?
I recognise both as good games (not 13). When calling 10 great and 12 sh*tty at the same time there have to be something clouding ones judgement.

Most FFs have some confusing stuff that don't makes sense. I bet if I asked a FF10 fan what the deal is with Tidus I would could get a 10 page wall of text answer. And (I don't know if it counts) FF10-2 messed up the story really good. So, Tidus is a dream of the fayth who wants the dream to end? How is he manifested as a real person? As I understand it, the fayth based Tidus on the villain from FF10-2. Then shouldn't his name be the same as that villain? And what about that hot gf summoner that villain had? Did the fayth forget about her or did Auron pick up Tidus before he met her?
The point I'm trying to make, I guess, is that there will always be things you simply have to accept in stories like these. The more of the ludicrous stuff you manage to swallow, the more appreciative the story gets.
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Answering your question about Tidus.  There was a question posed and the creators said that you can't really call him a fayth remake as they have completely different personalities.  Remember Shuyin came from an age of war.  The dream Zanarkand is just a hallow shell of what the once great city was before war and strife.  I think the main reason Shuyin looked like Tidus was because Square noticed how popular he was mostly given to the emotional impact of him and Yuna parting.  Also they probably used it as an excuse to make the previous cast have something to aim for as a plot device.
 
The game-play was lacklustre too imho.  Gambits took all the tactics and brainpower away from you; for 90% of the game I survived on 2 gambits as my characters mindlessly slashed away.  Random treasure was a silly idea. The areas were great but filled with nothing as you walked for miles on end, and sidequests and user input was down to a minimum.
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It's like Square identified all the worst aspects of MMORPGs - the arbitrary and unfair randomized mechanics, the focus on looting, the fixation on killing numbers of beasts - without figuring out a way to substitute the best parts of those games, namely the feeling of progression, a sense of mastery and the random interactions with your teammates.

In FFX you get complete control of your characters and even Summons, you get little quirks with the limit breaks (like entering a code, or pressing button at correct time, or liming up slots).  There is nothing like this in XII.  It's just one long trudge, and the gamer comes second at all times.  Even the AI was lazy.  FFXII deploys the most lazy battle mechanic  too "Heaps of HP = harder".
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The basic way to play XII is to find an auto-grind spot at the earliest opportunity, wait until you're overlevelled, and then plow through the rest of the dungeons as fast as possible. At least that way you can keep track of the (terrible) story - otherwise, with four or five hours between story points (thanks to dungeon length), you forget what's going on.

It's a complete mystery to me how anyone puts this game above X... I've racked my brain over it a lot, but I haven't got an answer!  :-P  The only thing it beats X on imho is the graphics (and perhaps voice acting, which doesn't really count as part of a game anyway). Even the music has to go to X.
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Graphics? Besides the dodgy HUD design, FFXII is vibrant, sharp, and shows off a consistent art design (I know the Yevon patterns are overused, but they do suggest a coherent Spiran architecture). You can differentiate areas in ways that reflect the game lore and battle animations show great momentum and force. XII's graphics are nothing like that. Muddy, samey dungeons with homogenous architecture; floaty, ineffective battle animations; hackneyed pseudo-Renaissance styling.

Final Fantasy XII is not a good game.
 
More random stuff about 10 that I found annoying and/or bad from the top of my head:

The underwater breathing. Or do they hold their breath?
The physics underwater.
Yes, this is fantasy, but we are expected to accept it at face value. If you can accept it, fine, but I reserve my rights to call bullshit on it.

A blitzball as a weapon. Lulu's stuffed toys as weapons. I facepalmed at this. I think I hurt my face.

Tidus' blatant stupidity as a plot device. And also the fact that Tidus is the protagonist. Yuna, Auron or even Jecht would be better choices. I get the first-person-point-of-view narration mode they're going for, still those 3 persons I mentioned are far better protagonist choices. That, or they could have made Tidus a more relatable, and far less annoying person. Who relates to a sport-star crybaby idiot from a futuristic society.

Recycled dialogue every 20 minutes or so. (Sin is Jecht... This is my story... Sin is bad... Zanarkand... blah, blah, blah). This isn't necessarily bad, but imo annoyingly executed.

Stupid hairdos. Wakka... Seymour...

Yuna's resolve to confront Seymour alone was stupid. Not brave, just stupid. In both writing and resolve. She even had at least 2 perfect chances to send him after they killed him. Why didn't she?

The Al Bhed kidnapping summoners. Ok, so they are against summoners sacrificing themselves for the greater good, yet no problem killing of guardians in the process. Rikku's brother had no problem sending a death tank after the party his sister was in. "Hey father, I rescued Yuna but I had to kill Rikku in the process." Cid: "That's fine, as long as Yuna is ok. We can't have her sacrificing herself, now can we?"

The "rescue Yuna" as a plot device. Yes, we are her guardians, but come on... How many times do we need to play the save-Yuna card?

Flow of events considering time. Try to make sense of the flow of time after they kill Seymour for the 1st time, 'til they escape Bevelle.
The snow yeti breaks the ice; you fall more than a 100 feet to your death, yet you survive. Then Sin magically transports you to Bikanel island where Yuna is taken by the Al Bhed. Somehow the Yevon squad manages to get to Home, wreack havoc and kidnapp Yuna before your party arrives. Then they transport Yuna to Bevelle, prepare a wedding before you -who have the only airship in the world- manges to get there. It makes less than 0 sense.

After they crash the wedding they go to the -tediously annoying- cloister of trials to get Bahamut. Why? Isn't it painfully obvious you would get caught there? Even more stupid is the execution by sewer. We know Mika wants them dead (he orders his underlings to kill anyone who tries to escape); why not do it in a more efficient way? It's not like this method is a settled, or preferred form of punishment in Spira. At least as far as we, the audience, know. I may have accepted it if it was foreshadowed more. In the end, this is a double plot induced stupidity moment.

Why did not Auron tell the others about Yunalesca? I don't buy "you wouldn't have believed me if I told you" crap. Then why tell Tidus that Sin is Jecht? In the light of Yunalesca's case the Jecht thing would make sense at once, so why not? Preparing all the guardians for what's ahead, not just Tidus, would be a smart thing to do. The perfect opportunity to do this would be the campfire scene. It would make for a shocking reveal at the same time blend it together with the intro, making it more memorable. Instead we get a "This is my story" bullsh*t repeat. Is this were all those narrations from Tidus happened? And the story 'til now was all a flashback? Did he just narrate his whole trip to the rest of the party? ...Yeah I know it's not the case, but then, who is his narration meant for. We, the players? It doesn't sound like that either: "Listen to my story. This may be our last chance."

The plan to defeat Sin by song. Need I even need to elaborate on this?

The defeat of sin by blitzball and stuffed moogle toys. No one in the history have ever managed to defeat Sin by any means (except the final summoning of course), yet here we are fighting him with medieval (and stupid) conventional weapons. I guess it's expected in the spirit of jrpgs. That doesn't mean it makes more sense and is less unacceptable.

I could go on. In almost every scene there is something stupid, annoying sh*t going on that bugs the hell out of me. Still I recognise as a good game overall, but not because of the story. The themes and messages square tried to get across may be good though.
 
Most of your points are things that dont really determine if the story is good or not. You sound like you dont want a story at all which is maybe why you like xii as it doesnt even have anything to tell at all. That whole "why dont protagonists just kill each other right on every first oppertunity they have" approach is something you can put on every game and movie. We want something to actually happen and if there are some logical mistakes thats fine. You say you dont like the story but you dont really comment on it. The story is made up by the characters, the plot, the world we are in, the stuff that is narrated. Its mostly a question of taste if you like that about ffx or not but as you accused me of having a "clouded judgment" I expected something more objective and story-related than commenting on haircuts and picking out irrelevant details that dont make perfect sense.

I feel like its the other way round: You just dislike the game for some reason and search for points why that might be true.

Here is why I like the story (BIG SPOILERS):
1. Characters. Its absolutely a question of taste. I liked how their personalities were made up of more than one striking characteristic like its done in xii or xiii. At first it seems that way of course: we have the relaxed one, the raging one, the cool one etc. but in the course of the story we learn more about their personalities and personal stories. Aurons intentions are something I found most interesting.
You said Auron didnt tell the party about yunalesca as they "wouldnt have believed it" but thats not what he said. He said "if i told you, would that really have stopped you from coming?"

After you learn all about auron you should get what he means. Everyone just thinks aurons always cool n stuff; the "legendary guardian". Remember on the top of gagazet "I was just a boy about your age. I wanted to change the world, too but I changed nothing. Thats my story"

Plus Auron had a very personal matter with yunalesca as she killed jecht and braska in aurons eyes and of course hinself, too. The reason auron didnt say anything about yunalesca is because he wants the change that he could not bring on his first journey. Nobody celebrates yunalescas death more than auron, to mika he sounds all proud and satisfied "summoners and their guardians will sacrifice themselves no more."

You know the way the party of ffx is. They would have planned exactly who becomes the fayth for yuna and executed it that way without asking if they had been prepared and had the time to think about it. Auron WANTED the big surprise. He wanted yuna to turn her back on the final summoning and kill yunalesca. But thats not easy to talk about if the whole pilgramege is about the acquisition of the final summoning.

2. Zanarkand. I love how the truth about the legendary metropolis is slowly revealed in the course of the game. I found it very interesting and well done. The whole time you think it was time traveling till you find out that tidus zanarkand is physically existent in the ocean outside of Spira and Sin is not some punishment but ju yevons weapon to ensure that humanity will never develop far enough to be able to reach the dream zanarkand. CRAZY! That was most amazing.

3. Twists...dont seem constructed just to have a twist at all. I found the narration very consistent. At first you believe all the stuff about Spira but we can easily tell that there is something fishy about it. Everyone believes sin is some punishment and a religious thing but that was just made up by the order of yevon as they know that sin was created by ju yevon to destroy the machina and keep humanity away from the dream zanarkand. How the game slowly reveals how corrupted and creepy yevon is, all their teachings just hypocritical crap and their highest rank members...dead creepy zombies. That gave me chills I just loved that!

4. Yuna! Shes worth an own point you say its annoying how they keep safing her which sounds like shes some stupid helpless princess. But yuna is stronger and more determined than anyone else, she would do no less for her guardians than they do for her. She accepts her own death, marrying an asshole and turning herself against yevon all for the sake of the people of spira and for her friends. Yuna helps out against seymor, too. Yuna risks her life on the marriage scene to protect her guardians and she decides to finally break the cycle and get rid of yunalesca and the final summoning.

5. MUSIC!! the deep story of ffx is perfectly powered by another amazing uematsu soubdtracks. Ffx is one of his best ones imho which is a matter of taste again...
 
Oh no here we go... a dispute! It's usually me at the centre of this but luckily I am pissed!   :P ;D
 
If someone doesn't like something, and has an argument why, why do people find it necessary to force them to see 'reason'?

So he likes FF XII better than X, why does that make us angry? People should be allowed their opinions.

You can have your reasons why you like or dislike something, but we shouldn't argue over who is right or wrong here, because that argument will lead no where.
There are no right answers here. It is all a matter of taste.
 
Hehe, I'm not angry, I find it amusing to discuss these kinda things. Maybe because of the silliness that is opinion vs opinion.


Most of your points are things that dont really determine if the story is good or not. You sound like you dont want a story at all which is maybe why you like xii as it doesnt even have anything to tell at all.
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You nailed it. ;) I also like food with no taste.

That whole "why dont protagonists just kill each other right on every first oppertunity they have" approach is something you can put on every game and movie. We want something to actually happen and if there are some logical mistakes thats fine.
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Acceptance was one of my key points. To put it diffrently, if the flow of the story feels consistnent, flows naturally, etc, it's easier to swallow it/accept it. If "him" not killing "him" when he "should", it shouldn't have to be accepted at face value. Yuna not sending Seymour after we have been shown her resolve to do so, should, imo, have a reason communicated to the player.


You say you dont like the story but you dont really comment on it.
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I think I was rather specific. Well... specific enough considering it's off topic and all...

The story is made up by the characters, the plot, the world we are in, the stuff that is narrated. Its mostly a question of taste if you like that about ffx or not but as you accused me of having a "clouded judgment" I expected something more objective and story-related than commenting on haircuts and picking out irrelevant details that dont make perfect sense.

I feel like its the other way round: You just dislike the game for some reason and search for points why that might be true.
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I criticise design desicion that I find flawed. That is valid when judging a piece of entertainment such as an interactive story. And I was being rather specific about some story elements that can be viewed as a sin (<- see what I did there  :evil:), objectivly speaking, considering storytelling.

To make perfect sense is one thing; to make no sense is another.


I do take back what I said about Auron though. In the framework of his character arc it's not that stupid. He wanted them to have a shock reveal. :)


To say something good about 10:

There is that lure twist (Sin is Jecht) that sets the groundwork for the other twists. That was well done imo.

Tidus as a surrogate character. Although annoying as hell, I think the decision to make the protagonist a childish/immature surrogate character was very good considering the framework. Tidus as the avatar for the player works very well, I must admit. Him being immature is also a key design decision that served the story good.

The themes of gnosticism, religion, tradition, etc. The people of Spira have very short timespan to recover. If they're not recovering from Sin, they are preparing for Sin. This is pretty much their entire life. If you manage to adopt their mindset, you can't really blame their incapability to end the spiral of death. This puts the whole religion and tradition themes in gray zone, moraly speaking. It's their way of struggling to keep head above water. It's all they know.

FF10 had easily the biggest potential to be the best FF story. A few weird decisions broke that potential.

The best scene in 10 is probably the scene with Yunalesca <- somewhat on topic :P
 
I see noone angry and no dispute. Just discussing/debating. I force noone to have my opinion I just made my points clear. Only cuz something is subjective doesnt mean you cant talk about it or that you have to listen to anything people say about your evaluation without commenting. I just made some points on ffx clear to show my friend here that it is absolutely possible to love x and hate xii without being drunk, clouded or not honest  about your own opinion in any way.

If someone thinks Im wrong and still doesnt believe its no rage or dispute saying that back and I force no opinions at all if I come up with more points about the game in response then.


I seriously dont understand those reaction, relax guys we're cool and even if gjoerulv disagrees with me 100% Id take a bet he is as relaxed as I am- nobodys angry here.
 
There are no right answers here. It is all a matter of taste.
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I disagree with that assertion.  There are numerous flaws in XII that simply don't exist in X or other Final Fantasy games.  Personal opinions are made up of facts and observations.  A blanket "It's all opinion" won't cut it. 

For example, the character development of XII being lacklustre isn't an opinion.  It is something we can all see and we can compare it to the other games and point out the numerous issues with it and the story.  Gambits may be a matter of taste, but what isn't is that it takes control away from the player.  Now in my view that's a criminal error for a game to make, because a game should be giving you more control (FFX you could even control the Aeons).  In XII there are no quirks or clever mechanics... it is all hack and slash, and the majority of that all you are touching is the "up" control.

People enjoy games for different reasons, but I'd suspect the large majority of people who take exception to XII do so for the same reason as me., namely the bare story and plot, disastrous pacing (it really is bad), non existent character development, and reduced game play value in favour of "gambits" auto-slash characters.
 
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I enjoyed the combat in FFX, especially the final battle. I didn't really care for much else in the game.
 
I remember plugging up my ps2 for the first time and putting in ffx; the fmv with the black mages playing in the background and Auron looking like a badass really hyped me up.
    But somewhere around the point when Seymour starts to become more prevalent in the game I quit playing. He just looked sooo silly to me.
 
He looked at Sephiroth's hair and decided to boost it a little. I wonder if Seymors haircut is somehow physically possible :D
 
Ask the punks from the 70's-80's, lol I think they used to use gelatin and bees wax to keep their mohawks so high.
 
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