Ohh yeah!

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Yes but did they have branches in multiple directions ? I wonder if that can be done somehow :D
 
All I meant was, whether something is good or bad artistically, intellectually, etc... Isn't the problem. Rather, that's all good and fine, but just because someone likes it when others don't we shouldn't get mad at someone over that.

I thought FF XII had interesting ideas, awful execution and not enough character development, but I didn't /hate/ the game. I found aspects of it charming. In fact I argued once, if the name Final Fantasy wasn't in the title the game wouldn't be getting nearly so much hate. -Edit- I never finished XII, ultimately because I felt the story fell flat.  I do not like it as a whole. -Edit done-

However, I do not want to be a part of a bigger debate. All I meant is we are allowed our own tastes and opinions.
 
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How can you guys sit back and bash on ffx and ffxii's stories while most of you like FF8? Anyways, the biggest problem for me about ffxii was that it seemed like Vaan and Penelo didn't need to be there and seemed to be added into as an after thought. I always thought Balthier really should have been the lead of the game. Yeah, and as mentioned before the horrific amount of MMO-like grinding required in that game. Ffx's main problem for me was Tidus's voice actor. My god hearing him speak was unbearable. If I had to choose, ffx>ffxii because of battle system
 
FF8 may have had a few plot issues, but the character interaction was very strong.  The characters were also interesting, and the story kept you interested.  The garden battle sequence was superb, as were most of the set pieces.  It had a lot going for it even if it wasn't perfect.   8-)  It certainly wasn't entire open areas separated by a few lines of dialogue for over 20 hours.
 
How can you guys sit back and bash on ffx and ffxii's stories while most of you like FF8?
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Because FF8 at least got off to a VERY strong start. The first act was great, the second act (discs 2, 3) was... okay, the characters (except Squall) were well-defined and interesting the whole way through (even in the abysmally stupid final act), and even the parts of the story that didn't work were at least well-presented.

In Final Fantasy X, you effectively play as a sidekick. Tidus is certainly important to the story, but when it comes right down to it, this is Yuna's story (in spite of what Tidus himself actually says). This works okay, especially since Tidus has a fairly strong subplot disguised as the main plot for a large chunk of the game, and since Tidus goes the entire time thinking he's the star even at points when he's clearly not. It's slightly problematic, especially if the player puts themselves too much into Tidus' shoes and agrees that he's the main character, but it works well enough for most players.

Final Fantasy XII forces the player to see the story unfold from the point of view of a character with virtually no actual involvement. The dungeons are effectively filler segments, between cutscenes, and the Vaan's main purpose is to witness a story going on around him. He's got his own internal conflict, but it has virtually nothing to do with the main plot. Honestly, the way this game was written, it's almost as though Basch was originally going to be the main character and Vaan was a last-minute addition. It's only reasonable that when the protagonist is tacked on like this, people will get annoyed with the story; even if it had been a good story (it's not), it's told through the wrong POV, which really ruins the pacing and storytelling.
 
Its because FF8 has good characters. Same for x, but unlike xii. Thats a significant reason to many players and probably why many ff fans like 8 and x but not 12.
Although most story events after disc 1 are senseless(which made this squallsdead theory come up that I quite appreciate though I know its not Square's intention) I love playing the story as Squall is amazing and the music is among the best of all time imho.

I also like the much hated junction system. It was very dynamic and allowed more ways of getting powerful and beating bosses with little to no training than ff7's materia system did. There are thousands of combinations for materia setups but as most are similiar or useless its more linear than it seems at first.

I go for 7>8=x>rest

8 for gameplay and characters, x for everything related to the plot and 7 for everything about the game plus the modding fun xD
 
@Covarr: I agree with your assessments of 10 and 12 for the most part, I just don't see where they fall behind 8's. 10 in particular I feel surpasses 8's story in every way. The beginning of 8 (before it gets way too convoluted and stupid) I felt was in the mediocre-good range but still nothing to vault it over 10. I'm not trying to bash it, I guess I just feel like most people find the stupid parts of 8 acceptable or at least excusable because of something that justifies it. I find that most of the problems with 10's story are excused by my subconscious because of the supporting cast (auron in particular) and a wide variety of factors including just how creative the story got without plummeting into nonsense, like with 8. I haven't found anything like that in 8's story, so I guess I would just need someone to way the pros and cons of the story and explain why the pros outweigh the cons.

@meesbaker: I was mainly talking about the story of the game, because I do appreciate aspects of the game such as freedom and places to explore. But I personally fail to see where 8's characters are interesting to be honest. I don't want anyone to take offense to this, but I like the story and characters somewhat of every final fantasy bar 1 & 8. I will list how the game made me feel about the characters for the duration of the "good" part of the story, before the game becomes too stupid ( for lack of a better term) to pay attention to.

In my opinion, selphie is the worst of all the annoying girls in her archetype. (Rikku, Penelo who was useless and pointless but less annoying, Yuffie, etc. are all less annoying to me).

Zell is completely unlike able and says the most stupid sh*t all throughout the game (like Tidus but worse)

Quistis I actually liked because she seemed to be the most calm out of the group without being too inactive (maybe there were two other large reasons I liked her as well lol)

Rinoa was unlike able chasing after the d-bag that is seifer for the first part of the game and I guess the dislike stuck with me as the story got progressively worse.

Squall is the epitome of what people hate about post KH1 (first appearance of emo cloud) cloud. I feel like every negative people have for advent children cloud or dissidia cloud or any appearance in which he is some quiet, loner, emo, whiner was done to an even greater extent with Squall.

Irvine is actually built up to be somewhat like able, only to find out he is an unlike able coward. (Can't pull the trigger is the biggest and most obvious example)


Edit: @DLPB Aside from any gameplay, was anything in the story of 8 better than 10's in your opinion? As I mentioned above, I wasn't impressed by the majority of the cast of 8 and the story in fact did not keep me interested. After the first disc it almost became painful, a chore to read the dialogue boxes (which I do obsessively in ff4, 6, 7, and 9). Like I said to Covarr, maybe I just someone (you perhaps?) to list the pros and cons of the story in detail so I can gain some better perspective on why the story of this game is so unanimously defended. I'm not saying it is objectively awful, for obviously I am in the minority. I just feel so out-of-loop when people constantly bring it up as a way to exemplify story-telling that modern games should take note of. People say square was better at story telling during the likes of 4, 6, 7, 8, and 9, and I am always puzzled by the inclusion of 8 on the list of great story telling.
 
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@DLPB Aside from any gameplay, was anything in the story of 8 better that 10's in your opinion?
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Well if you start FF8, the first thing that happens is you see 2 guys having an awesome sword fight.  They both get cut.  Then one wakes up in hospital (your character) and you learn that the other guy is Seifer and was your combat partner.  Within 5 minutes you have seen a mysterious lady at the window (Ellone).  So the game within 5 minutes has already given you 2 main things to think about. 

You expand out from there to learn that you are training to be a SeeD, and from there you are sent on a mission to Dollet and Deling where you eventually lose Seifer to a sorceress.  Along with everything else that happens during this period, there's no denying that a LOT of people, myself included, will be interested in that story.  It has a lot of things going on, and for me it was fun.  The ending, as Covarr said, with all that time compression nonsense, was badly done, but it was not a deal breaker.  It was a slight flaw in what was a pretty good story about how a damaged boy learns to love again and let go of his past.  I also liked the final Causality Loop twist where you learn Squall was the one who started Garden and the SeeDs.

I mean, yes there were flaws, but the main story was interesting to me. It asked questions all the way through, and let's not forget the dream sequence with Laguna, where you are trying to fathom what on earth is going on.  You learn that this is the past and that Ellone can send you there looking through the eyes of another.  FF8 kept you wondering and guessing, and that's what a good story does.

In terms of what FF8 did story wise better than 10?  It's hard to say because they were both solid stories with good characters.  But I'd say FF8's characters were better than 10's overall.  There is a proper internal rivalry as well with Seifer and Squall, where none exists in 10.  And yeah, 10 has a more convincing story with less plot holes.  I loved both games.

None of the games I have played have beaten FF7 though.  My favourite games in terms of story are:

FF7-FF10-FF8-FF9.  That's the order I'd put for them overall too (although FF9 gameplay was superior in quite a few areas and was damn fun).
 
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I don't know about story wise, that's a really hard decision, but overall, FF9 is my favorite. There are no nostalgia shades over my eyes because I didn't play any FF's until I was about 18. FF9 has very distinct, but also dynamic characters. Dagger is the most obvious example. It also had the best music of any Final Fantasy in my opinion, which greatly enhanced the gravity and seriousness of some of the events in the game. (i.e. Burmecia, Freya's love story, Vivi's existence). The combat was also very straight forward, but varied and challenging as well. Each character had a clearly defined role, but there are a lot of combinations between characters and battle interaction. I also absolutely love the equipment/ability system and think it paces your ability to become overpowered and also encourages varied play and layouts (i.e. changing abilities to fit the situation).
 
A big plus to FF9 from me is the fact the design team realised bigHP does not equal Difficulty.  Using 2 byte upper limits for HP amounts worked just how it should when you design your game around it.
 
Yes, a game's difficulty should not be dependent on your level or how much you grind. You should have some involvement past clicking Attack Enemy A 50,000 times.
 
I disagree with what has been said about Zell. He has nothing to do with the TROLOLO chara like Yuffie. He is brave enough to do anything for his friends(remember the galbadia prison) and among all the shit hes talking there is a lot of smart stuff in there. In the beginning youre supposed to think hes an idiot as squall tells you and as he always has beef with Cifer. But in the course of the game you learn that he has the most clue of the world of ff8. He knows a lot and handles machines :D
Remember on the bahamut island squall" maybe I should give this guy more credit".

I also didnt find him annoying at all, in fact he is actually squalls strongest and most reliable seed. Remember who leads the troops in the courtyard during the garden fight. Who squall trusts to save Rinoa, who leads on the attack against the Galbadia Garden, who looks out for edea while squall is in space....

I liked Zell quite a lot he stands for his friends and families and he has a cool fighting style and limit breaks. Dont see his connection to Yuffie. Yuffie knows nothing useful, literally talks shit and is there to troll the party. Id love to see Zell smack Yuffies face lol :D
 
@DLPB: Fair enough, maybe I just had too big of expectations for 8 because it was one of the last ff's I played, (I've played them all in the main numbered series excluding the online ones), and since it was so beloved I expected to fall in love with it like I had with 4, 6, 7, 9, and 10.

@meesbaker: I only mentioned Yuffie as reference for the archetype of Selphie, that reference had nothing to do with Zell.
 
Yes I see it now. And youre right there, Selphie is useless. But nothing is as terrible as Yuffie. I hated her steal my materia >:O
 
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