Over analyzing everything FF7 - when did Cloud leave behind the Buster Sword?

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Over analyzing everything FF7

While over dosing on coffee to prepare for a major negation (which has been unexpectedly delayed),  I find it best use of my time to open a discussion about FF7. Yes I have closed my office door in fear a co-worker looks to read this…

I think it has been about a decade since my latest post however, I cannot help but come to this forum from time to time to get the latest scoop on a FF7 remake rumor / mod / whatever.   If there are other ancients remaining here (no pun intended), than like me you have played FF7 far too often since ’97 and dipped into the compilation (DofC, Last Order, CC, ACC, ) despite your best efforts to grow up and resist. Lastly, I have read the Letters but only by skimming and may have missed the answer to my question below.

This is a ridiculous question but I am curious to know your thoughts.  Only the obsessed and those who enjoy overanalyzing may answer.   

When do you think Cloud first inserted the Buster Sword into the ground as a monument to Zack?

Most likely answer: After facing Seph in Northern Creator and before running into Denzel.  After the realization at Midel (sp?) with Tifa, Cloud had to save the planet and didn’t have time to focus on closing a few of his issues immediately.  After taking out Seph, I’m sure Cloud returned to Midgar to [insert letter to Denzel here – recall I only skimmed this story and the answer may be here].

As a different scenario - -  How about the first time Cloud left Midgar with the Avalanche gang, right after the flashback…  situational speaking, would this make sense? 

Please hear me out.

After Cloud tells the Avalanche gang about his story regarding him and Seph, I wonder if Cloud realized there were gaps, inconsistencies and overlap in what he was saying.  If a part of his physc knew that he was lying about the past, would he instinctively leave behind the Buster out of remorse?  Perhaps he wouldn’t know why it would make sense to leave it behind, but that it did.  As a side note, I cannot remember why Tifa did not speak out at that time and say: Cloud, I do not remember seeing you 5 years ago in nimbleheim. I think you are a crazy person…  While I’m sure it was a wild ride for Tifa to jump into the lifestream with Cloud to rebuild him in Midel, it could have been done over a simple discussion right then and there…

Also, recall Cloud buys the hardedge (name?)  in Klam, right next to the site where Zack falls, did Cloud hold onto the Buster the entire time like Angeal or did he toss it to the side when purchasing the new sword? Please discount that the Buster cannot be sold and can be re-equipped at any time in the game...  I do not think this is relevant however if you disagree please state why.   

Okay back to work - If you survived reading my geekish rant, much appreciated.

PS – square.enix, produce a bloody FF7 remake
 
The first four words of your thread are quite apt.

As a different scenario - -  How about the first time Cloud left Midgar with the Avalanche gang, right after the flashback…  situational speaking, would this make sense? 

Please hear me out.

After Cloud tells the Avalanche gang about his story regarding him and Seph, I wonder if Cloud realized there were gaps, inconsistencies and overlap in what he was saying.  If a part of his physc knew that he was lying about the past, would he instinctively leave behind the Buster out of remorse?  Perhaps he wouldn’t know why it would make sense to leave it behind, but that it did.  As a side note, I cannot remember why Tifa did not speak out at that time and say: Cloud, I do not remember seeing you 5 years ago in nimbleheim. I think you are a crazy person…  While I’m sure it was a wild ride for Tifa to jump into the lifestream with Cloud to rebuild him in Midel, it could have been done over a simple discussion right then and there…

Also, recall Cloud buys the hardedge (name?)  in Klam, right next to the site where Zack falls, did Cloud hold onto the Buster the entire time like Angeal or did he toss it to the side when purchasing the new sword? Please discount that the Buster cannot be sold and can be re-equipped at any time in the game...  I do not think this is relevant however if you disagree please state why.   
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I do think it's very relevant, seeing as it would be very difficult for Cloud to use his Buster Sword at any point in the game if it were stuck in the ground outside of Midgar. Also bear in mind that in the cut-scenes, he always uses the buster sword. It's his sword, throughout the game. I can't see why one would discount the fact that he keeps the sword throughout the game; are you sure that it was just coffee that you were drinking? ;D

There's also no reason to believe that Cloud had any inkling that his story in Kalm was a lie until his revelation in the Lifestream. All the information the game gives us (anything else is pure speculation) suggests that Cloud was fully immersed in the lie.

As for Tifa not speaking out, I believe she came up with some pathetic excuse like not wanting to cause trouble. Obviously, it would have made things difficult if Tifa had said in the middle of Cloud's story "liar, liar, pants on fire!"
 
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As for Tifa not speaking out, I believe she came up with some pathetic excuse like not wanting to cause trouble.
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Tifa
         "No, Cloud."

(She turns away.)

Tifa
         "I've been hiding it for some time, afraid that if I told you...
something terrible might happen."
         "But, I'm not going to hide anything anymore."
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How vague and useless.
 
Heh, I never thought of that, she really should've spoken out. Then again, It may not have worked regardless:


Let me give an example: you and a friend remember something. One friend says it's one way, and you know for a fact that it happened different from how he said it. You argue for quite a while, insisting that your recollection is the right one. The friend either A. asks another friend or B. shows you some physical proof of what happened somewhere, and then you are like - "Oh Sh*t, that DID happen. I remember now!"

Problem with Cloud and Tifa if they did that - their hometown is rebuilt and the people make believe nothing happened, and they are the only ones left from Nibelheim - thus no other person is able to step in and back Tifa up since the only people that know about it are Cloud, Tifa, and Hojo, Sephiroth and Shinra. Obviously, their enemy, like Sephiroth isn't going to come up to them and say, "Hey she's right Cloud, you remembered it wrong" and give him a pat on the back.

I think she may have did it at first because she thought he was just remembering events wrong and he may have heard it in the paper, or from Shinra themselves since Sephiroth going AWOL would have created a lot of surprise for key Shinra members, which Cloud would have been since he was in "SOLDIER", or at least she thought he was.

She thought he would realize it further down the line, but after he still didn't remember, it became something more serious, and since the only other possibility of what happened that was revealed later was that Cloud was a clone - and she obviously didn't want to believe that. Also that differs from her own memory, so i think that kind of messed them both up a bit. Besides, even if he did realize what happened if she were to tell it to him, he could just as easily take one of his memories with Zack he had and warp it to be his own, thus solving the Nibelheim part of his past, but creating a similar WHO THE F*** AM I mystery.
 
Tifa herself had completely forgotten / was entirely unaware that Cloud was at Nibelheim at all.  When Cloud was able to recount everything that happened at Nibelheim, Tifa must've been very confused.  Cloud correctly recalled everything that happened, only he cut out Zack and put himself in his place instead.  I don't think that ever happens in real life, and if you think about it, that's just... eerie.  Tifa didn't say anything because to declare that Cloud did not go to Nibelheim, yet admit that he got all the details right, wouldn't make any sense either.  Especially when the entire world is oblivious to the incident, and when the few people who do know about it are pretending that it never happened.

Tifa also never doubted Cloud's claim that he became a 1st Class Soldier, nor did anyone else.  If he was in Soldier, then he wouldn't be wearing an MP outfit.  Therefore, it would never occur to Tifa that Cloud was actually one of the MPs accompanying Zack and Sephiroth to Nibelheim.

But when playing through FF7 a second time, it is interesting to note that Tifa is conspicuously quiet during the Nibelheim flashback sequence.  There are a lot of these things: "..." in her dialogue boxes.

Regarding Cloud's Buster Sword, keep in mind that him leaving it behind is only official canon as far as the entire compilation is concerned, whereas FF7 was originally meant to be an entirely self-sustained story.  Anything that happens outside of what is seen in FF7, happens either before or after the events of the game.  It only makes sense if Cloud left the Buster Sword behind after defeating Sephiroth at the Planet's Core.  (If that's not enough for you, then watch Advent Children again.  During that short clip where Cloud fights Sephiroth at the planet's core, he's wielding the Buster Sword.  There's overanalyzing for you.)
 
/\ thats true with the Tifa thing, also, she asks him "are you feeling alright?" for no reason. I like how they did that.
 
Tifa probably wanted to see how far Cloud could go with the Nibelheim thing. She must have known that something was up, and kept quiet until a time when she knew she could confront him about it.
 
Cloud was in a Mako-Poisoned stupor and may or may not have realized/understood anything that was going on up until the point that Tifa found him at the Train Station (he was still partially stupified).  Tifa was near-fatally wounded by the Masamune slash right after her father was murdered by Seph and opened her eyes momentarily to see Cloud picking her up and carrying her off to the side.  They both had reasons for being unsure of what really happened.  Tifa was just happy for Cloud to be with her now (FFVII story-present).  When Mako Poisoning, Semi-Comotose states of being, murdered family (Tifa's father, Cloud's mother), burnt hometowns, Insane Super SOLDIERs, and alien lifeforms are involved, can you blame anyone for not being 100% sure what reality/memories really were?
 
That plus I think the original Square explanation was the Jenova effect. Basically remember Infalna describing how Jenova took people's loved one's forms, messing with memories, driving people to insanity, creating monsters, etc. Well what if the Jenova cells in Cloud affected Tifa's memories as much as they did Cloud thinking and taking on attributes of Zack.
 
Tifa probably wanted to see how far Cloud could go with the Nibelheim thing. She must have known that something was up, and kept quiet until a time when she knew she could confront him about it.
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either that or she really didn't remember, I mean, don't forget that she was stabbed (or sliced or whatever happened) brutally and suffered a severe amount of trauma and shock, it had to have taken weeks even months to recover from something like that, when she woke up she may not even have realized what happened and no one else around her actually saw what happened so its not like they could tell her. Not to mention there is no logical explanation how she even survived that blow, I guess magic spells like Curaga would be able to keep her alive but still there should have been more info on wtf happened to her. Come to think of it, THAT'S what this discussion should be about  :evil:

*edit* I was writing this as xLostWingx was posting his analysis and I just want to say I completely agree, as it kinda supports my argument ^  :-D
 
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Zangan saved her, and cast cure on her until he got to Midgar to see a Doctor. Although it's not known what happens after that :|

Zack and Cloud were left behind, because of Shinra's appearance. He could take Tifa, but didn't get to them in time.
 
There are some things to consider.  Basically all my beliefs and speculation on FFVII is based on FFVII the original game in USA only.  I've played Dirge and watched AC, but...idk, I don't really WANT to count any of that information as being valid.  As far as a Jenova Effect - the Jenova we see in the game is the semi-dormant Sephiroth influenced Jenova with its head cut off - so I don't think it was actually mind-fucking Tifa or Cloud, but it was a convenient way for Seph to play off of Tifa's and Cloud's damaged memories.  It would be interesting to see what the Jenova that migrated to Gaia was like when it arrived.  I've always held the position that Jenova taking the image of friends and family applies to the Ancient Jenova (Cetra folklore).  Seph took Jenova's head and got tossed into the lifestream with it, and thats why we get to see Jenova Birth/Life/Death/Synthesis, and The Reunion is definetly real, but other than that, I think the Jenova of the FFVII Present was just a dormant mass of powerful alien cells - The crystalized Sephiroth in Northern Cave was the being in charge (as opposed to Jenova or the Seph 'image'). 

To recap - Sephiroth begins life as a Jenova-Cell injected fetus.  He may or may not have been given a Mako Shower at some point while in SOLDIER (though he likely did not need one, or it had little effect).  He tweaks out after realizing he was an experiment.  He cuts of Jenova's Head and Cloud then tosses him and the Head into the Mako pit under Nibel Reactor (presumably connected to the Lifestream).  Eventually Seph arrives at Northern Cave, chills there becoming a Crystalized Mako/Jenova Cell/SOLDIER hybrid.  He sends his ‘image’ out to unlock Jenova’s body, Reunion begins, clones go north, Cloud goes north (though I think he was truly just chasing Sephiroth ‘image’ and not being summoned for The Reunion [but Seph says, “Are you participating in the Reunion…I don’t think you’re worthy”]), Seph gets Black Materia.  Crystallized Sephiroth is the real player behind the scenes, we only see him that once…but that is the being that is in control of all this.

Once Jenova is sealed away by the Cetra, that’s the end of Jenova-proper.  We fight Birth/Life/Death which could be ‘images’ or mindless Jenova Cell masses, or perhaps Jenova itself acting independently, or is being controlled by Crystalline Sephiroth.  After the Reunion, we can assume Jenova has reclaimed all it’s cells, save for the ones in Cloud, and Red (if he has some), and perhaps others.  I don’t know what I was saying anymore…basically the Crystal Sephiroth is the man in charge, the Jenova we see probably isn’t the Jenova on the Ancients’ Past, and as such, any powers that Past-Jenova had, probably don’t exist in the FFVII present, but Crystal Seph may have these powers too.
 
It's unsure if Jenova was dormant or not. If s/he controlled sephiroth. I remember reading some of the original scripts somewhere all the sephiroth's seen along the journey along with the cloaked figures are pieces of Jenova that assumed sephiroth's form. Also Jenova does have he/r one line in the ancient city.
The whole split sex thing I'm putting in is simply due to infalna's use of HE in the ancients legends of jenova.

Link to early material files, there are other ones that are interesting to read on the same site.
http://thelifestream.net/final-fant...528-of-the-final-fantasy-vii-ultimania-omega/
 
Obviously, their enemy, like Sephiroth isn't going to come up to them and say, "Hey she's right Cloud, you remembered it wrong" and give him a pat on the back.
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That kinda did happen, but just later in the story during the first trip to Nothern Cave right before Cloud gave Sephiroth the Black Materia.

I do believe the Jenova Cells theory though. In one cut scene where Tifa finds Cloud in front of the train in Sector 7, the screen flashes and it shows Tifa grab her head and shake no for a split second. I think that could have been the Jenova Cells reacting to her memories, and slightly altering them, but since she didn't have and Jenova Cells in her, it possibly did only so much as to fog the past a bit. Which would explain why she didn't say anything during Clouds retelling of the Nibelheim incident. She new there were some things that Cloud knew that he shouldn't have, but she didn't say anything because the Jenova Cells clouded her mind and so she wasn't completely sure what the truth was.

Let me give an example: you and a friend remember something. One friend says it's one way, and you know for a fact that it happened different from how he said it. You argue for quite a while, insisting that your recollection is the right one. The friend either A. asks another friend or B. shows you some physical proof of what happened somewhere, and then you are like - "Oh Sh*t, that DID happen. I remember now!"
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I think it was something like that, except instead of you thinking you know 100% what really happened and you were wrong, you have a vague remembrance of what happened, and what the other person said could also be true, so you just keep quiet so you don't end up looking like an idiot.

Also, I think Cloud left the Buster Sword after they landed when the lifestream had taken care of Meteor. Before he remembered everything, the Buster Sword had sentimental value, but he just couldn't think of why so he couldn't let it go. After he remembered, he kept as a reminder of what happened to him, and represented how him and Zach had become friends. After Sephiroth was defeated, he placed at the place Zach died so he could pay respect to his friend, and put what had happened in the past.
 
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It's unsure if Jenova was dormant or not. If s/he controlled sephiroth. I remember reading some of the original scripts somewhere all the sephiroth's seen along the journey along with the cloaked figures are pieces of Jenova that assumed sephiroth's form. Also Jenova does have he/r one line in the ancient city.
The whole split sex thing I'm putting in is simply due to infalna's use of HE in the ancients legends of jenova.

Link to early material files, there are other ones that are interesting to read on the same site.
http://thelifestream.net/final-fant...528-of-the-final-fantasy-vii-ultimania-omega/
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Sephiroth is using Jenova to take the form of his appearance.  His real body is at the Great Crater all through the game until after he summons Meteor.  Jenova is an extra terrestrial that landed at the Great Glacier from outer space and spread a deadly virus among the people.  Jenova has the ability to shape shift, and that ability Sephiroth uses.  He uses the same ability to take the form of Tifa to trick Red XIII.  Jenova is likely based on The Thing, an extra terrestrial found in a layer of ice and excavated with the ability to take on the form of other beings.

He uses Jenova's actual cells to form himself.  This is why you fight Jenova Birth,Life and Death after you see him.  because it has shape shifted into a grotesque life form.  Sephiroth is able to use Jenova to do his bidding, basically.
 
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So with fragments which Sephiroth had control of, the Jenova creature reformed completely each time. Cloud and the others defeat it reducing to the fragment again, only more or less lifeless this time...
 
I am not sure how that all works.  Whether Jenova can carry on growing etc... I dunno.  But the parts of Jenova are what you see when you Sephiroth appears places.  His will and Jenova's shape-shifting ability.

From Retranslation Project:

Sephiroth
“Changing one's form,
   voice and mannerisms,based on
   the memories of another is an
   ability granted by Jenova.”
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And

------------------------------
“Right at that moment
   is when it appeared!”
“It took on the form of our
   dead mothers… and brothers.
   To each of us it showed
   a ghost of the past.”
------------------------------
“It approached the Cetra
   with a familiar face…
   deceived them… and then…
   infected them with the virus.”
------------------------------
“Then,just as with Knoll's Pol,
   it approached other Cetra clans…
   and again… the virus…”
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