PSX Emulator (FAO Jari, Dag & Friends)

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I've only skimmed the article, but from what I see it is all about how bad CISC cpus are. Perhaps you got the terms mixed up? Remember, Intel = CISC!
Here's what the article say.

RISC vs. CISC, get over it

This seems to have touched a nerve with a number of people, since I called the whole CISC vs. RISC argument bullshit. It is. RISC is just a simpler way of designing a processor, but you pay a price in other ways. By placing the constraint that the instruction set of a processor be fixed with, i.e. all instructions be 2 bytes, or 4 bytes, or 16 bytes in size (as with the Itanium), it allows the engineers to design a simpler decoder and to decode multiple instructions per clock cycle. But it also means that the typical RISC instruction wastes bits because even the simplest operation now requires, in the case of the PowerPC, 4 bytes. This in turn causes the code on the RISC processor to be larger than code on a CISC processor. Larger code means that for the same size code cache, the RISC processor will achieve a lower hit rate and pay the penalty of more memory accesses. Or alternately, the RISC processor requires a larger code cache, which means more transistors, and this merely shifts transistors from one area of the chip to another.

The people who declared x86 and CISC processors dead 10 years ago were dead wrong. CISC processors merely used the same kind of tricks as RISC processors - larger cache, multiple decoders, out-of-order execution, more registers (via register renaming), etc. In some cases, such as during task switching when the entire register set of the processor needs to be written to memory and then a different register set read in, the larger number of "visible" registers causes memory memory traffic. This in turn puts a load on the data cache, so as with the code cache, you either make it larger and use more transistors, or you pay a slight penalty.

My point is, these idiots from 10 years ago were wrong that RISC is somehow clearly superior to CISC and that CISC would die off. It's merely shifting transistors from one part of the chip to another. On the PowerPC, all instructions are 32-bit (4 bytes) long. Even a simple register move, an addition of 2 registers, a function return, pushing a value to the stack, all of these operations require 4 bytes each. Saving the 32 integer registers alone requires 128 bytes of code, 4 bytes per instruction times 32 instructions. Another 128 bytes of reload them. Ditto for the floating point registers. So who cares that it simplifies the decoder and removes a few transistors there. It causes more memory traffic and requires more transistors in the cache.

And the decoding problem is not that big of a problem for two reasons. I'll use the example of the 68040, the PowerPC, and the x86. A PowerPC chip can decode multiple instructions at once since it knows that each instruction is 4 bytes long. A 68040 processor has instructions that are a minimum of 2 bytes long and can go up to 16 bytes in size (I think, I can't think of an example off the top of my head that's longer than 16). Let's say 16. The necessary bits required to uniquely decode the instruction are usually found in the first 2 bytes of the instruction, 4 bytes for floating point. That's all the decoder needs to figure what this instruction is. It needs to decode the additional bytes only in cases of complex addressing modes. This is one area where Motorola screwed up (and likely decided the fate of the 68K) is that they truly made a complex instruction that requires decoding of almost every byte.

In the case of x86, Intel either lucked out or thought ahead and made sure that all the necessary bits to decode the instruction are as close to the beginning of the instruction as possible. In fact, you can usually decode an x86 instruction based on at most the first 3 bytes. The remaining bytes are constant numbers and addresses (which are also constant). You don't need to decode, say, the full 15 bytes of an instruction, when the last 10 bytes are data that gets passed on down into the core. So as one reader pointed out in email, Intel stuck with the old 8-bit processor techniques (such as the 6502) where you place all your instruction bytes first, then your data bytes. In the case of the 6502, only the first byte needed decoding. Any additional bytes in the instruction were 8-bit or 16-bit numeric constants.

So decoding x86 is quite trivial, almost as easy as decoding RISC instructions. AMD seems to have figured out how to do it. Intel almost had it figured out in the P6 family (with only the 4-1-1 rule to hold them back), and then for the Pentium 4 they just decided to cut features and just gave up on the whole decoding things. That's Mistake #3 on my list of course, but this in no way demonstrates how superior fixed instruction sizes are over variable sized instructions.

Over the years, CISC and RISC have kept pace with each other. Sure, one technology may leap ahead a bit, then the other catches up a few months later. Neither technology has taken a huge lead over the other, since the decision whether to used fixed or variable sized instructions and whether to have 8 16 32 or 64 registers in the chip are just two factors in the overall design of the processor. Much of the rest of the design between RISC and CISC chips is very similar. And over time, ideas get borrowed both ways


True. Haven't read the article, but from what I've learnt at fast clock speeds RISC is far better than CISC.
For those who aren't sure about the difference: RISC processors complete an instruction very fast (maybe in one clock cycle) but only have very simple instructions.CISC processors can take a while to do an instruction - up to 10 clock cycles or so - but have lots of instructions which can do slightly more complex things.

So if you have a 500MHz CPU and it's CISC, it might only be executing 50M instructions per second, if those instructions all took 10 cycles. Of course, other things like waiting for disk access/other devices to do things slow it down further.

In contrast, a RISC processor could execute 50M instructions per second with a clock rate of only 100MHz, or maybe 200MHz - because each instruction executes so quickly.

You might say "So what? Surely it takes more instructions to do everything with RISC because each instruction only does one simple thing". Yes - in theory. In practice, nobody codes in assembler, so no program ever uses the full potential of the hundreds of different commands on a CISC CPU. Compilers aren't always 100% correct about the absolute most efficient CPU instructions to generate.

Whereas with a RISC, because there aren't so many instructions, it's quite easy for compilers to generate code which does use the most efficient instructions - there aren't many possibilities to choose from!

So on modern PC's, RISC generally outperforms CISC unless you handcode everything in assembler, and noone does that. It takes too long.
Obviously both of you have to read the article more thoroughfully. It's quite long and a good off-line read.


No, MS haven't declared the price of the XBox. They haven't declared release dates, either (and before you say the end of this year or something, Gates was quoted as saying he wouldn't release it until he got 3x the graphics performance of his rivals). All the estimates say that at $300 MS would be selling at a big loss. While they probably will sell at a loss, there is a limit. So more than $300 looks likely, and European prices always go through the roof compared to the US.
Even at US300, Sony is selling PS2 at a loss too ( covered by licensing fees ). So I think Microsoft will do the same thing too.


Add to that the fact that specs haven't even been finalised yet - so games can't be relied on to come out at a particularly fast rate - and the XBox does not look like a good bet. I walked into a high street shop a few weeks ago, and they had PS2's for sale over the counter, and a pretty respectable range of titles for it. Now, MS aren't releasing XBox in Europe to start off with, so even if they DO make a release date by the end of the year (I suppose it *could* happen) it'll never make it to the UK before mid-late 2002 - so it'll be 2003 before you can buy it over-the-counter. By Moores law, in 2003 the average PC will be running well over 1GHz, and a top-end model will be at least 2Ghz. Hmmm. Not much competition, I feel.[Oh yes: Specs. Microsoft is well known for sticking to "predicted" specs, isn't it? Remember the required specs for Win95? A 386 with 4MB RAM. Yes, MS, I think that'll work. All the graphics we've seen so far are based on "predictions" of what the XBox can produce. Nobody actually knows what it'll do in reality.
I think the X-Box spec is pretty much finalised already, by the fact that nVidia have already producing the GPU and the MCPx chips for X-Box. Only that the specs aren't publicised much as I thought it would be. In general, information available today should be enough to gauge how well X-Box performance will be.
 
oh guys about psx emulators:
good news for the next release of epsxe (due in about 1-2weeks) its gonna feature dual shock / force feedback support and, AND.....
Wait for it....
SAVE STATES/ FREEZE SAVES!!!!
so say good bye to sodding psx crappy memory card problems!! and so hello to Zsnes style saving!!
Of man.. save states. A nifty feature indeed. Dual shock support? Will it support PS analogue controllers via DirectPad Pro?
 
YES!!! EPSXE WILL SUPPORT ALL things that support force feedback (pc gamepads) and all psx dual shock controllers connected thru a PSX to PC adaptor THAT are designed with dual shock support!!
I love save states man! i hate mem' cards!
EPSXE is finally moving in the right direction (well faster than b4!)
ppl said it couldnt be possible, they would have to save ALL the pc and video ram in use, all i say is AHAHAHAHAH!!  :D
 
Nice....Whats even better for me is that now, finally ePSXe 1.20 supports FF9 PAL!!!!!

Yeah Baby!!!

So now its time for Qhimm to roll out his FF9 editor.  Sweet!
 
OK, I've read that article now.Oh, THAT was a well constructed argument! I mean, you can tell they spent hours and hours researching that, seeking out all the technical data, so they could make the informed and persuasive argument: "It's crap". I mean, that convinced me! Before, I always thought you needed *reasons* and *proof* when you were saying an argument was wrong, but no! all you have to do it say "that's crap" and immediately everybody has to be convinced! Well, that's going to work SO well in my university work; "I could give proof, but no; it's just crap." Obviously all those scientists who try to PROVE theories are wasting their time, all they need to do is swear at anybody who disagrees and that *makes* them correct!

As you might have realised, that article somehow failed to convince me on the RISC/CISC issue.
 
Oh, THAT was a well constructed argument! I mean, you can tell they spent hours and hours researching that, seeking out all the technical data, so they could make the informed and persuasive argument: "It's crap". I mean, that convinced me! Before, I always thought you needed *reasons* and *proof* when you were saying an argument was wrong, but no! all you have to do it say "that's crap" and immediately everybody has to be convinced! Well, that's going to work SO well in my university work; "I could give proof, but no; it's just crap." Obviously all those scientists who try to PROVE theories are wasting their time, all they need to do is swear at anybody who disagrees and that *makes* them correct!
I think the author already give proofs, backed in second or third level programming language examples. He just doesn't say that "RISC is superior than CISC" theory is crap ( even I learn that in one of my 8088 subjects in uni ), but also gives proof of what's he saying. Why don't you give him an e-mail and try to convince him that he is wrong?
 
Well, for starters he didn't even care to tell about what Fic explained so well: Few short instructions make faster programs than many slow as long as the compiler only uses a few anyway.Also I don't think there's anything wrong with passing variable length instructions under the RISC architechture, though I have no real knowledge in this area. I just know that the general opinion (on slashdot etc.) is that Intel is crap because of the reasons Fic mentioned.

It is a bit like the X-Box vs. PSX2 discussion in a way, RISC being PSX2 and CISC being X-Box...

And at any rate, the clock speed race is wrong. What, no games support dual processors? Well, except for that being wrong (Unreal Tournament supports it, enough for me...) once the world start using them games supporting them will be written!

Ever heard of the Transmeta processor? It emulates the 386 architecture on a RISC chipset. It consumes very little power, and because of that it doesn't need a fan and so consumes even less power. It's of course not as effective but still usable for everything but games. I believe that is where the world is heading...there's simply no point in faster and faster with bigger and bigger fans when you can have many small ones running cold.
 
OK, as for his arguments:"This in turn causes the code on the RISC processor to be larger than code on a CISC processor. Larger code means that for the same size code cache, the RISC processor will achieve a lower hit rate and pay the penalty of more memory accesses. Or alternately, the RISC processor requires a larger code cache, which means more transistors, and this merely shifts transistors from one area of the chip to another."

Nope, got it wrong. By having every instruction 4 bytes in length exactly, it speeds up code. Because you know that 32-bytes of code contain 8 instructions, and when you're executing instruction #7, say, it's time to go and get the next block of code. It also means instructions never get split up over code boundaries - for example, if your cache line was 32-bytes, with variable length instructions, what happens when an instruction starts on the last byte and carries on elsewhere? As an example, on Win98 there's a code optimizer tool that pads executable code so the instructions all end on 4K boundaries. THIS INCREASES THE SIZE OF THE FILE BUT IMPROVES SPEED OF EXECUTION.

"The necessary bits required to uniquely decode the instruction are usually found in the first 2 bytes of the instruction, 4 bytes for floating point. That's all the decoder needs to figure what this instruction is. It needs to decode the additional bytes only in cases of complex addressing modes."

First of all he says they're "usually" found in the first two bytes. Then he says "that's all it needs". Then he changes mind again and says that sometimes it DOES need the rest of the instruction! Either
a) You get all the instruction, leading to increasing memory traffic, exactly what he was accusing the RISC of    or
b) You don't, and when it turns out you DID need the rest of it, you're f***ed. (Well, actually it means another memory access - but you've just lost out speed-wise).

"...could give the appearance of executing 1 instruction per cycle. Any given instruction still takes multiple clock cycles to execute, but by overlapping several instructions at once at different stages of execution, you get the appearance of one instruction per cycle."

You do; on this he's quite right, if you've got enough simultaneous fetch/decode/execute subunits. He also points out this fails if the CPU is wrong about which instruction is going to be executed next (in the case of a Jump (GOTO, if you like) command). So, everybody, would would we all prefer:

a) A CPU which appears to execute 1 instruction per cycle except when it jumps, when the next few instructions will take up to 10 cycles.
b) A CPU which appears to execute 1 instruction per cycle except when it jumps, when the next few instructions will take up to 3 cycles.

Hmmm .... I'd want (b). That's the RISC.

Incidentally, JUMP instructions are fairly common in code. I've done some assembler programming as part of my course, and taking the example assembler I wrote for of the exercises, out of 17 instructions, 3 were conditional jumps. Lots of things generate jumps; calling a function, IF statements, loops, etc.

Also, he mentions exactly *how* modern CISC processors gain their speed: Multiple decoders, like you need for the above trick. What about the PIII? "Decoders 2 and 3 can decode only simple, RISC-like instructions that break down into 1 micro-op." OK: So it's fast because the extra decoders in it are small RISC processors... that's exactly the case here: Modern CISC's *do* use a lot of RISC-type architecture to run as fast as possible. Does this suggest, perhaps, that RISC has speed advantages over CISC? No, of course it doesn't!.

The guy who wrote that article seems to have a good grounding on CPU history, and a fairly good grasp of theory, but a less-than-100% idea of how the basic electronics in the CPU are working. Given the choice between believing this guy, who seems to have a lot of x86 experience but not a lot else, or believing my CompSci lecturers - who tell us to go and check everything out in the hardware labs, which we do - I'll go with the lecturers.
 
Aaaah!!
The posts in this topic are honestly getting longer and longer. But honestly speaking, I wonder if it's worth actually posting anything to reply to cHiBiMaRuKo cause he doesn't seem to read what we say.quote from  [url="<a]http://www.g256.com[/url]" TARGET=_blank>www.g256.com   today
_________________________________________

MS to lose $2bn on Xbox
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Icenum    Thursday March 8, 2001  3:04 AM Your Time
The Register has some darn interesting insight on MS and the XBox, good for consumers and bad for MS..Awwwww:
Merrill Lynch has come to the shock conclusion that Microsoft is going to lose a lot of money on Xbox. The console could drain up to $2 billion from the Beast of Redmond's coffers before break-even.

As the world+dog knows, consoles are sold at a loss in the early days, as manufacturers subsidise the low price points needed to drive sales of the machine.

Microsoft has yet to announce Xbox pricing, but most observers put it at around $250. Merrill Lynch reckons each console will cost around $375 to produce - simple maths tells you Microsoft is flushing $125 down the pan. The figure might be higher or lower depending on what Microsoft ultimatly asks punters to pay. The Xbox price tag isn't expected to be much higher than the $299 Sony currently charges for the PlayStation 2.
_________________________________________


[This message has been edited by The SaiNt (edited March 08, 2001).]
 
Nope, got it wrong. By having every instruction 4 bytes in length exactly, it speeds up code. Because you know that 32-bytes of code contain 8 instructions, and when you're executing instruction #7, say, it's time to go and get the next block of code. It also means instructions never get split up over code boundaries - for example, if your cache line was 32-bytes, with variable length instructions, what happens when an instruction starts on the last byte and carries on elsewhere? As an example, on Win98 there's a code optimizer tool that pads executable code so the instructions all end on 4K boundaries. THIS INCREASES THE SIZE OF THE FILE BUT IMPROVES SPEED OF EXECUTION.
Ahaha, good, but as you have said above, and also the author want to point out, THIS INCREASES THE SIZE OF THE FILE BUT IMPROVES SPEED OF EXECUTION. By larger file size, more memory
would be needed for operation. Chances are high that, that L1 and L2 cache won't be able to hold all the data needed for execution, thus cache miss rate will be higher. Cache miss cost CPU cycles, I think you know that, and RISC speed advantage that it should have is gone anyway.


"The necessary bits required to uniquely decode the instruction are usually found in the first 2 bytes of the instruction, 4 bytes for floating point. That's all the decoder needs to figure what this instruction is. It needs to decode the additional bytes only in cases of complex addressing modes."First of all he says they're "usually" found in the first two bytes. Then he says "that's all it needs". Then he changes mind again and says that sometimes it DOES need the rest of the instruction! Either
a) You get all the instruction, leading to increasing memory traffic, exactly what he was accusing the RISC of or
b) You don't, and when it turns out you DID need the rest of it, you're f***ed. (Well, actually it means another memory access - but you've just lost out speed-wise).
Did the author already say that it will only need to decode the whole instructions when in complex addressing mode. He also say only SOMETIMES the 68040 cip hhave to do that. The fact that all the data need for execution usually lies in first 2 ( or 4 ) bytes is quite right, especially in today processors, except sometimes. If you get all the instructions in the first 2 ( or 4 bytes ), I don't see why does it increase memory traffic because usually it don't take as much physical RAM as RISC would do.


"...could give the appearance of executing 1 instruction per cycle. Any given instruction still takes multiple clock cycles to execute, but by overlapping several instructions at once at different stages of execution, you get the appearance of one instruction per cycle."You do; on this he's quite right, if you've got enough simultaneous fetch/decode/execute subunits. He also points out this fails if the CPU is wrong about which instruction is going to be executed next (in the case of a Jump (GOTO, if you like) command). So, everybody, would would we all prefer:

a) A CPU which appears to execute 1 instruction per cycle except when it jumps, when the next few instructions will take up to 10 cycles.
b) A CPU which appears to execute 1 instruction per cycle except when it jumps, when the next few instructions will take up to 3 cycles.

Hmmm .... I'd want (b). That's the RISC.

Incidentally, JUMP instructions are fairly common in code. I've done some assembler programming as part of my course, and taking the example assembler I wrote for of the exercises, out of 17 instructions, 3 were conditional jumps. Lots of things generate jumps; calling a function, IF statements, loops, etc.

Also, he mentions exactly *how* modern CISC processors gain their speed: Multiple decoders, like you need for the above trick. What about the PIII? "Decoders 2 and 3 can decode only simple, RISC-like instructions that break down into 1 micro-op." OK: So it's fast because the extra decoders in it are small RISC processors... that's exactly the case here: Modern CISC's *do* use a lot of RISC-type architecture to run as fast as possible. Does this suggest, perhaps, that RISC has speed advantages over CISC? No, of course it doesn't!.
I think you miss the point of what the author want to point out here. He only want to point out that "RISC is here to stay and CISC will die" theory isn't true. Maybe the RISC is fast, but CISC chips had already have their ways of matching RISC speed and efficiency. After all, the author already pointed out that all enginners come from the same uni/college and learn the same books, maybe the same one as what you've learned. I a computer engineering grad from UPM in Malaysia, and my lecturers also kinda say the same thing to me. But in IT world, everything changed quickly and the not everything you've learned in university today will apply to then outside world in one or two years.


Aaaah!!
The posts in this topic are honestly getting longer and longer. But honestly speaking, I wonder if it's worth actually posting anything to reply to cHiBiMaRuKo cause he doesn't seem to read what we say.
quote from  [url="<a]http://www.g256.com[/url]" TARGET=_blank>www.g256.com   today
_________________________________________MS to lose $2bn on Xbox
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Icenum Thursday March 8, 2001 3:04 AM Your Time
The Register has some darn interesting insight on MS and the XBox, good for consumers and bad for MS..Awwwww:
Merrill Lynch has come to the shock conclusion that Microsoft is going to lose a lot of money on Xbox. The console could drain up to $2 billion from the Beast of Redmond's coffers before break-even.

As the world+dog knows, consoles are sold at a loss in the early days, as manufacturers subsidise the low price points needed to drive sales of the machine.

Microsoft has yet to announce Xbox pricing, but most observers put it at around $250. Merrill Lynch reckons each console will cost around $375 to produce - simple maths tells you Microsoft is flushing $125 down the pan. The figure might be higher or lower depending on what Microsoft ultimatly asks punters to pay. The Xbox price tag isn't expected to be much higher than the $299 Sony currently charges for the PlayStation 2.
_________________________________________
You obviously don't get my point up there. Did I say that Microsoft will make money from X-Box sales? No! Microsoft will highly likely also take the strategy employed by Sony ( if you did know how Sony operates on the console market ). Did you think that PS2 really cost ONLY US 300? Maybe I should have make my point clearly next time.

[This message has been edited by cHiBiMaRuKo (edited March 08, 2001).]
 
Uhm, cHiBiMaRuKo, I didn't meant anything by the post on how much Microsoft is losing out. That was just for everyone's information. Maybe it was I that needed to make things clear.
   
Ahaha, good, but as you have said above, and also the author want to point out, THIS INCREASES THE SIZE OF THE FILE BUT IMPROVES SPEED OF EXECUTION. By larger file size, more memory
would be needed for operation. Chances are high that, that L1 and L2 cache won't be able to hold all the data needed for execution, thus cache miss rate will be higher. Cache miss cost CPU cycles, I think you know that, and RISC speed advantage that it should have is gone anyway.
Note that the author stated "THIS INCREASES THE SIZE OF THE FILE BUT IMPROVES SPEED OF EXECUTION". Execution describes the whole process thus it includes factors such as L1 and L2 cache. If he said COMPUTATION instead of EXECUTION, the factors of L1 and L2 should be considered.

Here's some info you guys should read before actually arguing any further. All the info below has been picked from   [url="<a]http://www.gamespot.com[/url]" TARGET=_blank>www.gamespot.com  


What kind of CPU will it have?
Early rumors indicated that the X-Box would be powered by an AMD Athlon running at either 600 or 650MHz. However, in an eleventh-hour decision made by Microsoft, AMD was dropped in favor of Intel due to pricing and availability concerns. Microsoft has committed to an Intel Pentium III processor, but hasn't decided on a clock speed yet. At the very least, the X-Box will have a P3-600 at its heart.
 
What kinds of graphics chip will it have?
In another last minute decision, Microsoft dropped start-up GigaPixel in favor of Nvidia, which is a much more established graphics-chip manufacturer. The prototype unit showed by Microsoft during Gates' presentation was running an Nvidia NV15 chipset, but the final design will feature an even more powerful NV25.
How much system memory will the X-Box have?
The X-Box will have a unified memory architecture wherein the console will share 64 megabytes of DDR RAM for the video and main system bus.  While this might seem a bit unorthodox, the X-Box's unified architecture will let developers fill nearly all 64MB with memory-hungry textures, eliminating the need for texture caching, which can tax the hard drive and system bus.
What about the OS?
The X-Box will run off a Windows 2000 variant in conjunction with DirectX 8. Microsoft's Seamus Blackley told GameSpot that the current Win2K kernel "is the size of a fly burp," and it will top out no larger than 500kb.
Will PC games be able to run on the X-Box?
Unfortunately, no. The X-Box is a standalone console and not a PC-in-a-box. As such, Microsoft will be setting up a licensing and quality-assurance business model like the ones currently in place at Sega, Nintendo, and Sony. However, because of the X-Box's x86 architecture and familiar OS and API, developers should be able to port over PC games to the X-Box (or vice versa) in a matter of weeks.
On the RISC and CISC topic, you might want to read this:-
   [url="<a]http://www.zdnet.com/pcmag/pctech/content/14/18/tu1418.001.html[/url]" TARGET=_blank>RISC vs. CISC  

I'm too lazy or rather I'm too buzy too type anymore, so that's all for now.

[This message has been edited by The SaiNt (edited March 09, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by The SaiNt (edited March 09, 2001).]
 
Fill ALL 64MB with textures? Unless I've missed something, doesn't this mean there'd be no memory left for the main game - like, say, sound effects, the polygon data, the actual program itself...BTW, that link you posted is empty.

And yes, I know the author of that article I was commenting on isn't trying to say RISC's are useless. He's trying to say they hold no advantage over CISC, and I say that's wrong.
 
Note that the author stated "THIS INCREASES THE SIZE OF THE FILE BUT IMPROVES SPEED OF EXECUTION". Execution describes the whole process thus it includes factors such as L1 and L2 cache. If he said COMPUTATION instead of EXECUTION, the factors of L1 and L2 should be considered.
And then what's the point? It seems you want to say that execution and computation speed both depends on L2 and L1 cache. Of course it is. And then?


Read all the X-Box and notes taken
The CPU has been upgraded to 733Mhz  [url="<a]http://firingsquad.gamers.com/news/newsarticle.asp?searchid=1666[/url]" TARGET=_blank>FiringSquad article  but I already heard that it's been slowed down to 667Mhz. There's possibillity that AMD chips could also be used  [url="<a]http://www.msxbox.com/php/full_post.php3?id=700[/url]" TARGET=_blank>AMD in X-Box


I've already said that NV25 ( not exactly NV25 but a beefier version of NV20 ) will be used by X-Box. Afraid that textures will fill up the 64MB DDR-RAM and couldn't flush it out as faster as X-Box could be hoping for ( even with high bandwidth it have )? X-Box shipped with a 8GB HDD right out from the box ( not your normal PC HDD mind you ) for storing information about the actual games etc just like a swap file.  [url="<a]http://www.msxbox.com/hardware_php/hd.php3[/url]" TARGET=_blank>HDD in X-Box . I better make it straight that HDD in X-Box is faster than what you've seen in current PC, particularly that because it's not hindered by PCI 33Mhz speed.


Fill ALL 64MB with textures? Unless I've missed something, doesn't this mean there'd be no memory left for the main game - like, say, sound effects, the polygon data, the actual program itself...
If the 64MB DDR-RAM isn't enough and X-Box couldn't flush the textures fast enough, there's always the HDD to hold the data you've mentioned. Those kind of data shouldn't take too much bandwidth as opposed to the textures.

I doubt that the textures will take all 64MB though because at most, X-Box will only render at 800x600res ( as most current TV max resolution is this ). HDTV isn't popular as of yet, but when HDTV is, X-Box2 will already come out out ( well if X-Box is successful ).


And yes, I know the author of that article I was commenting on isn't trying to say RISC's are useless. He's trying to say they hold no advantage over CISC, and I say that's wrong.
Today, that argument sure is true. Name me any true RISC or CISC CPUs out there now. There's aren't any. RISC have it's own weakness that hinder performance and CISC also have their own. If RISC have complete advantage over CISC as what you've claimed, CISC will die already.
 
Check your logic. I never said RISC had every advantage over CISC. I said  it's wrong that they have *no* advantage. As for swap files ... exactly how is a 6 point whatever GB/sec bandwidth helping you if you're constantly swapping to/from hard disk? A *ridiculously* fast hard disk could manage 100MB/sec in *theory* and that would mean half a second lock-up every time the XBox flushed large portions of RAM... plus no drive *ever* gets it's maximum speed rating.
 
Check your logic. I never said RISC had every advantage over CISC. I said it's wrong that they have *no* advantage.
And then it's safe to say that CISC have their own advantages over RISC too?


As for swap files ... exactly how is a 6 point whatever GB/sec bandwidth helping you if you're constantly swapping to/from hard disk? A *ridiculously* fast hard disk could manage 100MB/sec in *theory* and that would mean half a second lock-up every time the XBox flushed large portions of RAM... plus no drive *ever* gets it's maximum speed rating.
1. Only data like the textures and the soundstreams is needed to be changed quickly most of the time. Other data, such as game engine, the Windows 2000 kernel itself etc. aren't changed by much in gaming  course. So, X-Box probably will store those static data on the swap file, and only the textures/sound streams on memory.

2. As I have said before, X-Box games usually won't render more than 800x600 resolution even at the release time at the end of the year, because conventional TV don't support res. higher than that. I believe 800x600x32bit with texture size of 2048x2048 won't even take take half the RAM on X-Box. So there's plenty of room for other processes/data etc. And if most developers use lower res than that, with I expect from early games anyway, memory requirement would be less.

3. I've also said that the HDD in X-Box aren't tied with PCI speed limitation in PC, due to  architectural differences between both PC and console. These PCI problem are the one that make current HDDs ( for PC ) don't attain their rated speed. Maybe HDD in X-Box could reach their maximum speed easier than what of PC could. But at least it would be faster than what PC have to offer.
 
I've corrected the link alreadyAaaah!!!
You still don't get it do you?
When the author actually said
"THIS INCREASES THE SIZE OF THE FILE BUT IMPROVES SPEED OF EXECUTION"

The part "THIS INCREASES THE SIZE OF THE FILE " means that the size of the file does increase.

The other part "BUT IMPROVES SPEED OF EXECUTION" means that the overall speed already includes the factors such as L1 and L2 cache. In other words, the latter is faster ON THE WHOLE.

If the 2nd part said "BUT IMPROVES SPEED OF COMPUTATION", it would mean that it only increases the speed of processing but the L1 and L2 cache factors have not been included thus it WILL be possible that the it may be faster.

cHiBiMaRuKo, what is the problem with you and the bandwidth problem? Don't you see? With only 64MB of DDR RAM for both the system and the video and main system bus, the system would not be efficient at all. Firstly, you will definately not flush all of the main systems bus info into the hard disk or it will just make the whole system SUPER SLOW. The idea of unified memory is exactly what the whole AGP idea revolves on. The AGP bus has sufficient bandwidth to access the system RAM but why doesn't it do it straight away and alleviate the problem of putting RAM chips onto the video card itself? This is because the RAM chips on the video card are usually faster and owned SOLELY by the video card. Let's assume that the Geforce 3 will have 64MB of onboard RAM minimum so wouldn't that already mean an advantage over the X-box?

Now lets look at the 2nd part, where you say swapping on the hard-disk works fast because of the advantage it has on the system bus. Please note that PC hard drives nowadays have access to what is called UDMA100 technology. The only reason you would require such technolgy or speed transfer is If your hard drive spins with at least 7200 rpm. Note also that the bus speed is not the limiting factor here. The hard drives only manage to reach the 100MB/s transfer limit when the acheive a BURST speed. Therefore even if you have a 2 million MB/s bus speed for hard-drives on the X-Box, it will not be of any use. Should you say Microsoft could easily put a 10000rpm hard drive into the X-box, think about it, if Microsoft were to that, how much do you think the X-box would cost? If Microsoft were to do that and still be able to make it cost less that $300, a lot of people would go out and buy it straight away but not for the console but just to salvage all the parts in the X-box. Please also remember that a hard drive is a physical read device that requires a motor and will never ever manage to match RAM. Swapping between RAM and the Hard Disk is a BAD IDEA cause RAM is at least 10 times faster than your hard disk. Swapping to the hard disk defeats the complete purpose of the fast processing speed doesn't it?

I'm running out of time again so I'll talk about the textures tomorrow if I can find the time.
About textures  [url="<a]http://www.bleem.com/help/support/video/hardtext.html[/url]" TARGET=_blank>differences between the PC and the PSX
 
Yes, CISC *does* have some advantages over RISC and vice versa. I objected to the way you (and the author you quoted) dismissed RISC processors as of no use at all nowadays.And yes, hard disk's aren't limited by bus speed. They're limited by the fact they're a physical medium that requires movement to change data, unlike RAM where data is changed purely electronically.
 
Aaaah!!!
You still don't get it do you?
When the author actually said
"THIS INCREASES THE SIZE OF THE FILE BUT IMPROVES SPEED OF EXECUTION"The part "THIS INCREASES THE SIZE OF THE FILE " means that the size of the file does increase.

The other part "BUT IMPROVES SPEED OF EXECUTION" means that the overall speed already includes the factors such as L1 and L2 cache. In other words, the latter is faster ON THE WHOLE.

If the 2nd part said "BUT IMPROVES SPEED OF COMPUTATION", it would mean that it only increases the speed of processing but the L1 and L2 cache factors have not been included thus it WILL be possible that the it may be faster.
That doesn't change the fact that RISC CPU ( post G4 anyway - which have ridiculously large cache ) don't have superior execution rate that what of CISC have. The author ( Pentium 4 article ) have pointed out that while RISC code execution is faster, the cache problem reduce it's rate anyway.


cHiBiMaRuKo, what is the problem with you and the bandwidth problem? Don't you see? With only 64MB of DDR RAM for both the system and the video and main system bus, the system would not be efficient at all. Firstly, you will definately not flush all of the main systems bus info into the hard disk or it will just make the whole system SUPER SLOW. The idea of unified memory is exactly what the whole AGP idea revolves on. The AGP bus has sufficient bandwidth to access the system RAM but why doesn't it do it straight away and alleviate the problem of putting RAM chips onto the video card itself? This is because the RAM chips on the video card are usually faster and owned SOLELY by the video card. Let's assume that the Geforce 3 will have 64MB of onboard RAM minimum so wouldn't that already mean an advantage over the X-box?
How did you know that putting data that aren't memory intensive in HDD will make it super slow? You're seems to think that X-Box architecture is the same like of current PC, while it completely isn't. First you say that AGP have sufficient bandwidth to system memory. Woohoo, who taught you that? The AGP is slower than what you can think off. Swapping textures from system memory will make even the fastest x86 computer on earth stutters. X-Box don't have that problem. X-Box is actually just like a large graphic card, with high bandwidth for itself. No AGP or PCI, no IDE etc. Swapping textures in X-Box will be just as easy as current garphic cards do.

64MB DDR-RAM is ENOUGH for all data ( textures, sound, game engine etc ). Let say if a X-Box game is coded at 800x600x32bit and using 2048x2048 textures ( the most current TV could support ), with triple buffering, and medium texture usage and detail ( this is TV anyway ). It won't take more than 15MB of buffer and texture memory, which is the most important in ensuring stutterless gameplay.
And did you already forget that Direct3D also have support for S3TC and DXTC ver 3 and 5 ( NV10 and later support both )? Applying that 2 extension will reduce the memory requirement for textures and buffer memory futhrer.  Win2k kernel for X-box will top-out at 500kb. Still plenty of space for other data to fill in.


Now lets look at the 2nd part, where you say swapping on the hard-disk works fast because of the advantage it has on the system bus. Please note that PC hard drives nowadays have access to what is called UDMA100 technology. The only reason you would require such technolgy or speed transfer is If your hard drive spins with at least 7200 rpm. Note also that the bus speed is not the limiting factor here. The hard drives only manage to reach the 100MB/s transfer limit when the acheive a BURST speed. Therefore even if you have a 2 million MB/s bus speed for hard-drives on the X-Box, it will not be of any use. Should you say Microsoft could easily put a 10000rpm hard drive into the X-box, think about it, if Microsoft were to that, how much do you think the X-box would cost? If Microsoft were to do that and still be able to make it cost less that $300, a lot of people would go out and buy it straight away but not for the console but just to salvage all the parts in the X-box. Please also remember that a hard drive is a physical read device that requires a motor and will never ever manage to match RAM. Swapping between RAM and the Hard Disk is a BAD IDEA cause RAM is at least 10 times faster than your hard disk. Swapping to the hard disk defeats the complete purpose of the fast processing speed doesn't it?
Again why do you think HDD for X-Box will be only as par as PC? You always seems to think that X-Box architecture is the same to PC. Of course the HDD in X-Box will never match the memory speed but it can attain a higher speed than what HDDs in PC can. How high a UDMA100 transfer rate in PC could go? 40Mb/s tops. Why? It is because of HDD limitation or the PC system bus? The IDE controller maybe can handle 100MB/s but how about the PCI 33Mhz? UDMA 100 HDDs could achieve more than 60Mb/s sustained transfer rate in labs but why it doesn't even reach that speed in counsumer PC? It is still HDD limitations or not? Up to you to think of it. Why I know? I work at IBM HDD factory in Sungei Besi near Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.
I bet that HDD in X-Box could acheive at least 50MB/s in transfer speed, as it connect directly to the X-Box faster system bus.  And yes, there's NO HDD in PC yet that I've seen that reach 66MB/s or 100MB/s, at least, outside the labs.


Yes, CISC *does* have some advantages over RISC and vice versa. I objected to the way you (and the author you quoted) dismissed RISC processors as of no use at all nowadays.
Did I've said anything like that? I'm just replying to DagSverre post that say  CISC is stepping to the wrong direction, while it certainly isn't. And I don't remember that the author I've mentioned ever dissing RISC. He just mentioned that RISC is better than CISC argument is wrong, which is certainly true, especially nowadays.
 
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