Religion

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Religion is fucking shit. If there was a god, then there were not wars, hungry people and so on... at vitam eternam...

DLPB, I hate you! Why? Because you said everything I wanted to say, and, moreover, you stayed calm!!!

Ok, I'm gonna say what I loooooove to say :

RELIGION IS FUCKIN SHIT AND SHITIN FUCK WITH SHIT FUCK AND FUCK SHIT!!!!!

Ok, lets stop it now...
No flaming.
lol.

One thing I've seen time and time again is the general attitude of "fuck you, you're intolerant". To say that religion is the cause of hate and bigotry, all while acting hateful and bigoted, some of the most hypocritical behavior I've seen.

Religion.  Once served a purpose, now serves none.  Creates far too many problems, especially Islam, which is an ideology from a war-lord.

All of them are outdated (with exception of Buddhism which is strictly not in the same league).
To act as if religion is "outdated" is to act as though human nature has changed in the past 2000 years. The thing is, it hasn't. Humanity is still as dimwitted, selfish, and most of all, arrogant as ever. Scientific achievements have brought the world a long way, but that's a reflection on knowledge and its way of building on itself, not on mankind's behavior or attitudes.
The world's favourite mental illness. The stronger the religious belief, the sicker the mind.

To see it in its purest form, watch some of the videos made by a certain man who has just died. Remember that suicide bombers are the most devout people on the planet.
I have no doubt that Mother Theresa was stronger in her religious belief than Osama Bin Laden, but few would say her mind was sick, and no reasonable person would say she was sicker than Osama.

it ruins lives, justifies wars, encourages ignorance etc.
People who want a war will justify it one way or another, with or without religion. This is a fault of human nature. What's more, the vast majority of religious wars are either not actually about religion (the Crusades, for example, were about restoring stolen land to its rightful owners), or about some horribly bastardized misrepresentation of the religion they claim to be fighting for (the Qur'an, for all its problems and violence, doesn't say anything about suicide bombing and killing thousands of innocents, and most Sunni Muslims do not even support Al-Qaeda's cause).

I strongly suspect that the most adamantly anti-religion crusaders are in fact not atheistic at all like they claim, but rather DO believe in a God and are angry at Him. No logically-behaving person could be that passionately hateful towards a being that they don't even believe exists. (please note I am only referring to militant atheists here, the ones for whom it is not enough merely not to believe in a higher power, but feel the need to be assholes about it, such as Richard Dawkins and Ricky Gervais)
 
I understand that a there are a million justifications for warfare, but religion has allowed this to become a standard way of thinking. An ultimatum if you will, either you go to war or you endure the shame of casting aside your religions beliefs in the heat of the moment.

I believe that War, like all things, serves a purpose, but I also believe, like all behaviors, that it can become pathological and harmful where it should be helpful to the contruction of new societies and the spreading of new ideas.
 
If you mean in general, then I would say pretty much the same thing, except not quite as strongly.  If you mean in regards to mental illness, most diagnostic models require that beliefs/behaviors/symptoms be responsible for some clinically significant impairment of functioning.  This is why someone can be a narcissist without having Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  Religious beliefs can be categorized as 'bizarre' or 'magical' beliefs from a diagnostic perspective, but only the Westborough Baptist's, suicide bombers, and the like would be considered to have a Mental Illness based on their *religious beliefs.  But you must admit there is a distinction between what religion means to these people, and what religion means to non-psychotic/secularized believer.
That last bit is an oxymoron.

A lot of people like to argue that the extremists should not be taken as the standard for religious people. This is another mistake that political correctness causes; we seek the friendliest people to be the archetype for their religion because we want to say that "x is the religion or peace" or that the extremists (i.e. the people who go against secular Western morals) are perverting the faith. This is very bad. The moderates are people who do not take their religion seriously. They believe in some vague, watered-down version of the religion they were brought up in, and their morals are nearly always humanist ones mixed with the meekest and least repulsive of the old religious commandments. Moderates are half-believers. They might not be classifiable as insane, but that does not mean that religion is not a mental illness, since they're not really very religious. They have a mild religion that comes with a comparatively mild amount of irrationality.

The most sincere believers are the most extreme ones. The extreme ones are the people who honestly believe in heaven and hell and everlasting life*, the extreme ones are the ones who faithfully believe every word of their holy books and who follow all their religion's commandments as long as they don't contradict each other. These people are also mentally ill.

*Have you ever noticed that it's only the crazies who are willing to become martyrs? If good, faithful people go to heaven, why are so many believers so scared of death? Could it be because they're secretly sceptical about heaven? And that only the crazies are sure that it exists? Surely not! They say that there are no atheists in foxholes, but I say that there are no believers when the Nazis are at the door of the church and demanding that Bishop Kollaborateur tell his congregation to render all unto the worst Caesar in history. (yes, I read Hitchens' book recently :-P)

Given that I agree with a lot of your projection of human development in the coming decades/centuries, I imagine that there will be a time in the future where religious beliefs will be considered mental illness, but realize that the label of "mentally ill" is, and has been constantly transforming for thousands of years
Pfft, if it's considered a mental illness one day, I'll consider myself vindicated. Of course, I'll probably be a head in a jar by then :-(

I have no doubt that Mother Theresa was stronger in her religious belief than Osama Bin Laden, but few would say her mind was sick, and no reasonable person would say she was sicker than Osama.
It's a general trend, not an absolute correlation.

And mother Theresa wasn't as saintly as she was portrayed to be

I strongly suspect that the most adamantly anti-religion crusaders are in fact not atheistic at all like they claim, but rather DO believe in a God and are angry at Him.
And I strongly suspect that the "hurr all atheists are angry teenagers" argument is one of the worst in history.

No logically-behaving person could be that passionately hateful towards a being that they don't even believe exists.
Learn the difference between "God" and "the concept of God". The former hasn't killed anyone. The latter has killed millions.

(please note I am only referring to militant atheists here, the ones for whom it is not enough merely not to believe in a higher power, but feel the need to be assholes about it, such as Richard Dawkins and Ricky Gervais)
Can someone explain to me why atheists are considered militant if they tell people that they're stupid, whereas religious people are considered militant when they murder hundreds of civilians or command others to do so? Could it be that you're trying to equate these two things? To imply that they have anything in common at all? Or could it be that you consider questioning religion to be as bad as killing someone?

When I see Richard Dawkins hijack a plane and fly it into a building, I'll take seriously your argument that he's a "militant atheist". Until then, I'll accuse you of using hyperbole to the point of dishonesty.
 
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And I strongly suspect that the "hurr all atheists are angry teenagers" argument is one of the worst in history.
I never said ALL atheists. I SPECIFICALLY targeted the angry ones.

Learn the difference between "God" and "the concept of God". The former hasn't killed anyone. The latter has killed millions.
It hasn't killed a single person. As I said before, it is a combination of mankind's propensity to fight for damn near anything it can think of, and horrible bastardizations and misinterpretations of religions that have killed people.

Can someone explain to me why atheists are considered militant if they tell people that they're stupid, whereas religious people are considered militant when they murder hundreds of civilians or command others to do so? Could it be that you're trying to equate these two things? To imply that they have anything in common at all? Or could it be that you consider questioning religion to be as bad as killing someone?

When I see Richard Dawkins hijack a plane and fly it into a building, I'll take seriously your argument that he's a "militant atheist". Until then, I'll accuse you of using hyperbole to the point of dishonesty.
You have a decent point here, "militant" is an exaggeration. Nonetheless, people like Richard Dawkins aren't simply calling people stupid. He is smug, mean-spirited, self-righteous, and constantly looking to cause trouble. He has pretty much devoted his whole life to insulting people.

Believe it or not, I don't have a problem with atheism. I mean, I think it's wrong, but I've known plenty of kind atheists who don't resort to namecalling when anybody disagrees with them. Honestly, I'm chiefly concerned with people behaving civilly, and I tend to get along with people can do that, regardless of whether or not I agree with them. It's all a matter of who's looking for a fight and who isn't. You'll notice that I tend to get along quite well with DLPB and Mako (off the top of my head, but there's more than just them I'm sure), even though they have far different beliefs than me, it's because they know how to act like decent human beings.

But then, you ignored or misrepresented almost every point I said anyway. I'm not sure if this is poor reading skills, or just intentional baiting/borderline-trolling, but either way I'm too tired to argue right now.
 
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It hasn't killed a single person.
Lies! That bible came out with a knife and started chasing me down the street!

Just remember folks gun's don't kill people...people kill people.
 
I never said ALL atheists. I SPECIFICALLY targeted the angry ones.
It remains the worst argument in history.

It hasn't killed a single person. As I said before, it is a combination of mankind's propensity to fight for damn near anything it can think of, and horrible bastardizations and misinterpretations of religions that have killed people.
No, the bastardisations and "creative" interpretations of religions have been comparatively harmless. It's the true believers who kill. The people who take every word of the Bible or the Koran to heart and don't pretend the parts they don't like are metaphors.

BTW, what do you think about the Aztecs? They sacrificed tens of thousands of people every year because of their religious faith. Was this a bastardisation of their religion, or were they true believers?

Nonetheless, people like Richard Dawkins aren't simply calling people stupid. He is smug, mean-spirited, self-righteous, and constantly looking to cause trouble.

Compared to most political commentators, he's remarkably polite.

It's only because "faith" is given special protection and religious people expect special respect that he seems to be insulting.

He has pretty much devoted his whole life to insulting people.
No, he has devoted his life to science. Activism against religion is a *very* small part of his work.

Believe it or not, I don't have a problem with atheism. I mean, I think it's wrong, but I've known plenty of kind atheists who don't resort to namecalling when anybody disagrees with them.
I call a spade a spade.

Honestly, I'm chiefly concerned with people behaving civilly, and I tend to get along with people can do that, regardless of whether or not I agree with them. It's all a matter of who's looking for a fight and who isn't. You'll notice that I tend to get along quite well with DLPB and Mako (off the top of my head, but there's more than just them I'm sure), even though they have far different beliefs than me, it's because they know how to act like decent human beings.
DLPB isn't an atheist. He has been quite clear about that.

And the "behaving civilly" and "looking for a fight" parts are hilarious.

But then, you ignored or misrepresented almost every point I said anyway. I'm not sure if this is poor reading skills, or just intentional baiting, but either way I'm too tired to argue right now.
I took your points at face value. Should I perhaps have consulted a Biblical scholar to tell me the "correct" interpretation of your words?

And perhaps you could tell me exactly what I misinterpreted and what the correct interpretation was? Because at the moment you're being extremely vague and I can't help but get the impression that you're using this whole "misinterpretation" thing as a way of weaseling out of any criticism. Just as certain people conveniently dismiss creationists and suicide bombers as "misinterpreting" their religion, without taking the time to tell us what the "correct" interpretation is.
 
Believe it or not, I don't have a problem with atheism. I mean, I think it's wrong, but I've known plenty of kind atheists who don't resort to namecalling when anybody disagrees with them. Honestly, I'm chiefly concerned with people behaving civilly, and I tend to get along with people can do that, regardless of whether or not I agree with them. It's all a matter of who's looking for a fight and who isn't. You'll notice that I tend to get along quite well with DLPB and Mako (off the top of my head, but there's more than just them I'm sure), even though they have far different beliefs than me, it's because they know how to act like decent human beings.
This is why I'll continue to say I'm an agnostic IRL, even though I'm actually an atheist. It's hypocritical, yes, but I think it's needed hypocrisy in your everyday life. What I learned in the past is, no matter the quality of your argumentation, you can never convince a theist or atheist to change his ways. And since you can't get rid of them, might as well live in harmony with both (and as fun as it is, this topic ultimately is useless, as was the first one).
 
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This is why I'll continue to say I'm an agnostic IRL, even though I'm actually an atheist. It's hypocritical, yes, but I think it's needed hypocrisy in your everyday life.
When you say you are something you are not or deny that you are something than you are "hypocrite" is not the right word. The right word is a much shorter one.

What I learned in the past is, no matter the quality of your argumentation, you can never convince a theist or atheist to change his ways. And since you can't get rid of them, might as well live in harmony with both (and as fun as it is, this topic ultimately is useless, as was the first one).
And not upsetting people is more important than saying what you honestly believe?

What a pity that so many atheists think that way (to the point of being dishonest), but so few theists do.
 
Kudi: You seem to be implying that if religion had not existed there would have been no deaths? or killing? I think WITHOUT religion more people would have died! Yup you heard it here first.

Think all that time they spend worshiping there god! just stewing thinking of way to kill one another...The only thing religion is guilty of is being the scapegoat.
 
When you say you are something you are not or deny that you are something than you are "hypocrite" is not the right word. The right word is a much shorter one.
It's funny how most of your posts are the ones I agree with, but because of that aggressiveness of yours, it's you I end up arguing with, KM  ;D
So tell me, what is this shorter word ?

And not upsetting people is more important than saying what you honestly believe?
Sometimes, yes. If there were more people like me, the world would be a much better place.
 
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Kudi: You seem to be implying that if religion had not existed there would have been no deaths? or killing?
That's an astonishing interpretation.

Religion is one of many things that cause people to kill. There wouldn't be world peace if it disappeared, but certain parts of the world would be much more peaceful.

I think WITHOUT religion more people would have died! Yup you heard it here first.
We can never say for certain what would have happened in alternate histories, but I find this hard to believe. The only way it would be true is if we argue that people would have fewer children if they were less religious (and birth rates in the modern world support this theory) and therefore fewer people who could possibly die.

Think all that time they spend worshiping there god! just stewing thinking of way to kill one another...The only thing religion is guilty of is being the scapegoat.
A lot of the time people spend in places of worship is spent thinking of ways to kill people. Or demonise people in a way that makes killing them much easier. People are much more ready to kill when they believe that the death of the infidels is the will of God.

This might not be the case in Oxford or New Jersey, but it's certainly the case in Gaza and Abbottabad (or was the case ;D)

It's funny how most of your posts are the ones I agree with, but it's you I end up arguing with, KM  ;D
So tell me, what is this shorter word ?
Oh, surely you know what it is. ;D It's the word you use when someone is saying something that they know to be untrue, with the intent of causing the other person to believe something that is untrue.

Sometimes, yes. If there were more people like me, the world would be a much better place.
HAHAHA, OH WOW!

If no-one ever robustly challenged anyone else, I think we'd still be hunting bears and foraging for nuts.

And any psychopaths who did come along would have a very easy ride.
 
HAHAHA, OH WOW!

If no-one ever robustly challenged anyone else, I think we'd still be hunting bears and foraging for nuts.

And any psychopaths who did come along would have a very easy ride.
You know, talking with you is some hard exercice for me, since English isn't my natural language. But I'll say this : you mix up everything. On the subject of religions, you yourself have no power whatsoever. You're fighting something that is much bigger than you, and you're wasting your time. This isn't convincing people that driving is useful, nor is it defending yourself from a psychopath. The only thing a speech like yours would produce IRL, is making enemies. You're just a warmonger, and a warmonger that will fail. You hold your ideals high, you think you can change the world - but many tried in the exact same aggressive way, and all failed.

Don't go and compare your little crusade against religions, to the advances in our society or fights against totalitarism and dictatorships. They are nothing alike.
 
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This might not be the case in Oxford or New Jersey, but it's certainly the case in Gaza and Abbottabad (or was the case ;D)
Or Three quarters of the population of the planet, but feel free to mention one the most dangerous places...ohh wait.... :lol:


There wouldn't be world peace if it disappeared, but certain parts of the world would be much more peaceful.
Nah :-(

We can never say for certain what would have happened in alternate histories
But you just said...

A lot of the time people spend in places of worship is spent thinking of ways to kill people.
Thinking isn't doing good sir.
People are much more ready to kill when they believe that the death of the infidels is the will of God.
And if it isn't god, it sumthin' else HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray! People die everyday in NY for nothing, most cases random acts of violence. No god needed, though perhaps it would have been nice to blame someone. I blame poverty! LOL
 
You know, talking with you is some hard exercice for me, since English isn't my natural language. But I'll say this : you mix up everything. On the religion subject, you yourself have no power whatsoever. You're fighting something that is much bigger than you, and you're wasting your time. This isn't convincing people that driving is useful, nor is it defending yourself from a psychopath. The only thing a speech like yours would produce IRL, is making enemies. You're just a warmonger, and a warmonger that will fail. You hold your ideals high, you think you can change the world - but many tried in the exact same way, and all failed.
Such grandiose language!

And you clearly misunderstand my intention. I'm not trying to convert anyone, I'm just saying what's on my mind. It is you who seems to think that your beliefs will make the world a better place. You say just that!

If there were more people like me, the world would be a much better place.
I didn't know that such egos existed. Even in France.

But history has shown that appeasement only brings temporary peace. By tip-toeing around crazy beliefs, you only encourage them. Si vis pacem, para bellum!

Don't go and compare your little crusade against religions, to the advances in our society or fights against totalitarism and dictatorships. They are nothing alike.
Oh but they are! At least in one way. They both involve challenging ideas that were once seen as beyond reproach.

Really? But what is the most violent, hate-filled part of the world, and what are they fighting over?

Thinking isn't doing good sir.
They wait until they're outside the church/mosque/whatever before they start doing the killing. Most of the time.

And if it isn't god, it sumthin' else HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray! People die everyday in NY for nothing, most cases random acts of violence. No god needed, though perhaps it would have been nice to blame someone. I blame poverty! LOL
As I said, getting rid of religion won't stop all the murder. You'll still have New York. Who knows why those people act the way they do? ;D
 
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Really? But what is the most violent, hate-filled part of the world, and what are they fighting over?
GAZA, But this is a very small percentage of the globe. Also the recent fighting is been about land.

They wait until they're outside the church/mosque/whatever before they start doing the killing. Most of the time.
Ah so there is a time of peace :) Also have you seen a muslims prayer regime? Frekin' thing takes up most of the day.
As I said, getting rid of religion won't stop all the murder. You'll still have New York. Who knows why those people act the way they do? ;D
This will be the above excuse had religion been removed completely from the globe.
 
GAZA, But this is a very small percentage of the globe. Also the recent fighting is been about land.
The whole of the region is angry about it. Hell, the whole of the Islamic world is angry about it.

The fighting isn't just about land (Hamas, and presumably the people who voted for them as well, believe it's God's will for the Muslims to kill all the Jews), but even if it were, that land is only important because of its religious significance. Why else would you fight over the part of the middle east with no oil? 8)

If I were one of the early Zionists, I would have "found" evidence that the ancient Hebrews actually lived around the Gulf. :P

Ah so there is a time of peace :) Also have you seen a muslims prayer regime? Frekin' thing takes up most of the day.
I can't say that I've had that pleasure.

This will be the above excuse had religion been removed completely from the globe.
Except when religion has been removed from the globe, the violence will only be in New York, with people killing each other over bagel taxes. ;D
 
Such grandiose language!

And you clearly misunderstand my intention. I'm not trying to convert anyone, I'm just saying what's on my mind. It is you who seems to think that your beliefs will make the world a better place. You say just that!

I didn't know that such egos existed. Even in France.
For someone who just says what's on his mind, you sure do say things virulently. And yes, I stand by my words. When people accept each other's differences, their different beliefs, things do not evolve into violence. Meanwhile, it's people who want to force their beliefs into others, that lead to massacres. Because after all the talking, if the person you're arguing with still doesn't agree that his religion is "bull", what happens ? A kick in the groin ?

But history has shown that appeasement only brings temporary peace. By tip-toeing around crazy beliefs, you only encourage them. Si vis pacem, para bellum!
It's still peace. On the other hand, the behavior you preconise encourages an even stronger response of the believers. "Let's settle this. In blood".
 
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I meant secularized believer like a Yellow-Green crayon, not Freezerburn.  By head in a jar, do you mean in an awesome way like Futurama, or in a shitty way like in a mad scientist's lab.  I'd say both are equally likely.
 
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