Remaking FF7

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The SaiNt

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If we do ever complete enough of out FF7 editing, it has been suggested that we make a sequel for FF7. But I thought about the whole thing and I have finally decided that if we were to make a sequel, we're gonna run into a few problems so instead why not we write a prequel instead?
Why a prequel and not a sequel?Basically, cause if we were to write a sequel, we will have to make up a lot of new stuff which might not be agreeable to many like the revival of Aeris, or how the relationship among the characters turns out, or even whether Sephiroth might reappear or not.....

If we do a prequel, we can make use of the loop holes in FF7 where the certain parts of FF7 are missing or even add parts of FF7 that were only incomplete stories. This way, we limit ourselves to how the outcomes will be and thus helps us from going off track.

I thought a great title for the prequel would be something like this:-

Final Fantasy : Shadows Of Sephiroth

I chose this title cause we can try to focus the story around Sephiroth whom a lot of people seem to want to use in the game. By using him as the main character, we can include Hojo, Vincent and the whole SHINRA too, thus keeping a lot of characters within the game and saving us the effort of designing new characters. Throughout the way, we could introduce all the other main FF characters like Cloud, Aeris, Tifa, Barret, Zack, Prof. Gast...................you get the idea.

I believe this is a good idea and we should set up a storyboard commitee to write up the story while the others figure out the FF7 software section but of course this is my own biased opinion so I await everyone's reply.

Should you all agree, I recommend that Sephiroth 3D lead this project and that Qhimm creates a whole new forum section for this project. I also suggest that this forum to have password access only as to protect the story from leaking out to too many people. I mean wouldn't it only spoil the story if everyone knew it before we released it?
 
Yeesss ... problem here is that for *that* project you'd need to be able to edit the game "scripts", if you see what I mean. While that's certainly *possible*, nobody has managed it yet.
 
another flaw (maybe it isnt one) is that lookingat ff7s past, you limit yourself in terms of location.
i mean if u use cloud or sephiroth as the main character then youre limited to just nebilheim and midgar, as they didnt have to time to wander the world. and to get to see other characters pasts' youd have to keep switching lead characters which be very dangurous and play havoc in some locations.
otherwise its a good idea.
 
Maybe I should have told you guys this, but I wrote a rough storyboard for what I wanted in the remake back when I first suggested it. Without giving away too much, let's just say that The SaiNt has stumbled on part of one of my key ideas. I was planning on going in to the past (starting out there would be best), and perhaps also later using some flashback sequences (like Cloud and Sephiroth in Nibelheim) with Sephiroth, the Avalanche, and a lot more. I *can* say that I wasn't really planning too much on going past the ending. I'd save that for a true sequel. What I'm planning on is a *remake*. Furthermore, I was thinking that maybe what we should do is make it so that the option to play the special remade version isn't available until the game has been beaten. Then, after the 500 years later video, instead of cutting out, it brings you back to the startup screen, except this time it has a new option or two unlocked. Tell you guys what. If Qhimm is nice enough to create a forum for this, I'll be more than happy to elaborate on my ideas for the story/remake. Oh, and about the disagreeable stuff The SaiNt pointed out. I was thinking of adding  multiple endings, Chrono Trigger style, but hopefully nothing as controversial as what you mentioned. Most of Chrono Trigger's endings were ambiguous. I liked that (just not to the degree of "500 years later"). They revealed a few things, but left you guessing about more. Plus, and possibly more importantly, they left the door open for more (potential sequel, anyone?).Edit: I forgot. Out of curiosity, why should Sephiroth 3D be the leader? Unlike you, I barely know the guy. Heck, he just showed up here, what, two days ago? I know he's done some modeling and fanfic stuff, but does even he want to do this? If we must have a leader, what makes him the most qualified? Do we even really *need* or *want* a leader?

[This message has been edited by Srethron Askvelhtnod (edited March 09, 2001).]
 
well i see the point.
but we better not run ahead of ourselves u know.
we still can rewrite the entire data for ff7, or remake the game from scracth.
it all depends.
and about leaders:
"well as megatron has, how should we say  departed, I nominate myself as the new leader"
 
IIRC, Halkun said we also need to crack the debug room. Then, of course, there's also the script for character movements/actions.[This message has been edited by Srethron Askvelhtnod (edited March 10, 2001).]
 
The only reason I chose Sephiroth 3D is cause he has more experience than any of us in writing fanfic's.I'll look for and at the script files if i have the time but currently I can looking at the P files.

BTW, Skillster I can't send you the CD yet cause my CD-Writer Died on me  :(
If you still want it I'll send it to you once I get it back from the shop
 
I'd ask everyone to consider exactly how much data we can edit at the moment!-Graphics - maybe but not quite.

-Music - yes, totally.

-Sound - could be done without *too* much trouble.

-Text - the problem. You can *change* the text with Cosmo but you can't edit the *script*, ie. who says what in what order and when they say it. Once somebody figures out how to edit the script you can go ahead and do your remake. Until somebody does, I'm afraid you're f***ed.
 
A prequel, huh? How about a life story type thing?Sounds like fun. Follow Sephiroth from his birth to the point that Cloud kills him at the end of FF7. Tell the whole thing from his perspective!

Actually, for programming, I've been thinking about trying to get my friends to write me a plug-and-play FF style game engine. Drop in models, backdrops, music (MIDI or MP3), sounds, and even movies. Then you write a script, write dialog, then compile and play.

Granted, neither I, nor my friends, know how to build something like that, but it would be fun to have, because we could easily remake FF7-FF9.

Anyways, back to the idea... I would like to head the WRITING part, but someone else would have to run the actual development of everything else.  :D

Sephiroth 3D

"One who seeks knowledge from another person, doesn't learn half as much as the one who seeks knowledge for himself." - Vincent Valentine, The Sephiroth Chronicals, Book 1: Resurrection

[email protected]  
 [url="<a]http://www.sephiroth3d.com[/url]" TARGET=_blank>Sephiroth 3D's Final Fantasy  
 [url="<a]http://members.tripod.com/~EmperorTim/index.html[/url]" TARGET=_blank>Sephiroth's 3D Lair  
 [url="<a]http://members.tripod.com/~Sephiroth3D/index.html[/url]" TARGET=_blank>Sephiroth 3D's Promised Land
 
If only i knew how to program then i could be in on it too. Also would you get in trouble from square? + how would you distribute it.
maybe you should make it and then sell it to square, although then it would probably never come out on pc and if it did they would manage to ruin it
 
I highly doubt that square would accept you trying to sell back portions of *thier game* if anything they would be the ones demanding money. Changing things in FF7 and trying to sell it back to square is the eqivilant of saying "Hey, I relly liked the game, but you guys really fucked it up here, here and here so we made some illigal changes to your property, you wanna buy it back?"uhhh, no.

release it as a patch, that's the only real way of doing it. As for me, when the field files get figured out in 7 I will start a linux port that requires the original disks and will release the executible only.  

-halkun
 
Nice to see everyone so enthusiastic!M0T : We're definitely not going to distribute it in a big way. We probably have to do what halkun says and make patches. BTW if you can't program I still think you can help by using your mind to help us figure out how things work logically. The programming is only real important to create the front-end for actually editing the game.

Seph 3D: It's unlikely your friends get the time to compile the whole good FF7 engine. Besides, if we make a whole new engine, we're gonna have problems especially when it comes to getting people to d/l it. Imagine if I had to d/l another 500 MBs just to play the prequel which I don't even know works well.

fice: I don't think we actually need to change most of the sounds or graphics, to retain the FF7 feel to it. But then of course, we do need to change at least some of the graphics. We will also have to make some custom limit attacks for our new main character so we will need to know how to edit the limit attacks  :( I completely agree with you that editing the scripts will be the most important part but once that's done we'll be nearly done with everything, assuming we do get it done that is.

Srethron: I would love to hear your opinion of how you think the story would go and I have no doubts that you have fantastic or wonderful ideas. I like the idea that we do a prequel since we can start off the characters at Level 1, though we have to remember to cap Seph's level at 50 for the Nibelhelm scene.

halkun: Nice to hear that you will actually be planning a LINUX port for it but I would love to have you help us out with the FF7 system so we can get done faster or ever for the case. Look at it this way, if we do finish FF7, we could then shift everyone to help you out with FF8?

Skillster: Don't worry I'll send you the CD as soon as I get my writer back. BTW, i found out that even after including the FF7 OST and Reunion CD(just the 3 special tracks), I could still fit in the FF8 OST and even the FF Vocal Collection - Pray and FF Vocal Collection - Love will Grow in in it. In fact I still have empty space in the CD since I use 700MB discs. Maybe I'll try to fit the FFT or FF9 OST in too. I'm sure you wouldn't mind the extra tracks, right? Just tell me what tracks you want,ok?

Another person who could do a good job on writing the story board would be Frank Verdosa. I've read a lot of his work and it all seems pretty good. If you want to take a look, here's his site address.
 [url="<a]http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Ring/3665/[/url]" TARGET=_blank>OH NO! NOT ANOTHER FINAL FANTASY VII PAGE

If Qhimm really isn't going to help us open the new forum section, then maybe I'll set up a forum (either UBB or Ikonboard) later for us to discuss the project privately.
But I honest don't feel like doing that cause I will have to check back at 2 board within a single day. I already check a few boards everyday and it's really tedious.

BTW, its nice too see that this thread is progressing in a very proper manner and not ending up like a whole off-topic thing like all the other threads.
 
well, well ,well
saint: yeah, ill take that and anything else u got (your money/house/car/etc jokin  :D), that sounds great, thru em all on and ill be VERY happy  :D
srethron: if these gets past planning i think we get a big say dont u agree ?  :D
saint: the art on that guys main page is very niceok i think we should get organised, dont you?
so heres a quick team/orginsation/layout i threw together:
R&D: theSaint, Halkun
Technical Director: Ficedula
Director: Srethron
executive director: Qhimm
planning: sephiroth3d
well were to i fit in? thats your choice?
 
well saint im expecting it sometime this half of the year  :wink:
 
The SaiNt: Well, I suppose that's a good reason.   :) Still, I've already written a storyboard, and I would love to have a major part in writing the story. If and when we get our own forum, you guys can look it over. If you don't like it (or certain parts of it), well, then I'll be very open.Sephiroth 3D: I guess I wouldn't mind you being the head of writing, as long as my stuff is given a fair hearing.   :)

[This message has been edited by Srethron Askvelhtnod (edited March 11, 2001).]
 
Whoa! I see this has generated quite a lot of interest ... not that I should be surprised by that ...Coupla points:

1) Like SaiNt said, the script file editing is *the* major part. If that gets done - you're most of the way to making your sequel. If it doesn't (and don't assume it ever will - I think it would be one HELL of a complicated task) then you're going to have to use another game engine. (I can see Dag leaping in at this point, so I'll post for him: Legacy is a freeware RPG engine under development).

2) Re: Port to other O/S's : unfortunately, I don't see this happening. Think: To do that, we'd need to understand 100% of *every* file format. Can't believe that'll happen. I mean, I don't understand 100% of the *text* format, and that's just one part of the level file!
 
M0T: What The SaiNt said   :). Even if you can't program, making guesses about how the game does things or what formats are for seems to help nudge the programmers in the right direction.The SaiNt: Personally, I would like to change some of the graphics. Give the field models HANDS, for instance.   :) But even that wouldn't be easy. I think if someone ever does that directX layer, that takes care of part of the problem of spiffing up the graphics.

Another potential problem I see because we're using Seph is that he really is Vincent. I remember learning this ages ago. The save files are stored with Sephiroth and Vincent as the same thing or something like that. Same deal with Cait Sith and Young Cloud. That's why you shouldn't/can't have both Seph and Vince or both Cait and the Young'n in your party at the same time.

"I would love to hear your opinion of how you think the story would go and I have no doubts that you have fantastic or wonderful ideas."

Well, I can certainly *hope* that they are fantastic and wonderful. You know me, overeager, ambitious, and perfectionistic.   :)

The new board idea probably is more realistic than expecting Qhimm to create a special forum for us. I have an ezboard (not very good quality, IMHO), if no one else has the time, I can create a private forum just for us in it.

I checked out that guy's site just now. If you think he would want to help with something like this, that would be cool (as long as we writer types don't develop irreconciliable differences with each other over how to do the story   :P).

The Skillster: You think so?   :) That would be cool.

Just a couple things on your "team assignments":
1. So far, Qhimm has shown little or no interest in being a part of any of this. Unless, he says otherwise, I think we can count him out of this project.
2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ficedula has seemed more like, "Are you guys really that crazy?!", than, "I'd love to help." I'm really not sure if our resident FF7 App man wants a part in this beyond cracking the file formats and that type of thing.
3. We're a pretty small group right now. That means we'll probably/might have to share tasks/jobs a bit more.
4. It's nice that everyone has an "assignment", but perhaps we need to make clear what some of them are (job descriptions, if you will). I've got a fair idea about what R&D and planning are for, but I'm not sure about the others. I think we'll all be a part of research, while development of FF7 editing programs currently falls to Ficedula and The SaiNt. As for the story and all of that, that's still sort of up in the air. So far, I think myself, Sephiroth 3D, and The SaiNt all want to be a part in the writing. Now, for the actual "manual" labor, I think this is where Ficedula drops out. So, all of us will probably have to pitch in at some point. One of the storywriters can probably change any
text we need to in the existing field files, but I'm not sure about other things. For instance, if we *do* give the field models hands, someone will have to perform the changes to every single character model (!).

Here's what I *think* we need to do to get started:
1. Decide what changes we do and don't want to make to the game engine (graphics, models, sounds, music, in-game systems, etc.) (hopefully my tech doc can help with this).
2. Figure out more precisely how much we can do at this point in time.
3. Decide whether to use the FF7 PC engine or to use a different engine and just salvage
whatever we can from what we know.
4. Decide on the scope of the project. My personal plans are, honestly, quite large--maybe too large and somewhat beyond our cababilities. I would like to start at the "beginning", and work our way forwards until we get to where the existing game starts. Then, I'd like to continue with the existing stuff till the end, with various changes and additions (I don't *think* there will be omissions, though).
5. Storywriters compare ideas and any plans/storyboards, write (co-write?) new storyboards/plans with the goal of trying to arrive at a consensus on the story.

Ficedula: (1) Disappointing, but important to know. Out of curiousity, is there anything we/you *do* know about the script? Which section of the field files is it in?
(2) I'm not sure about having to know every format. If we can decipher the .EXE (and I gather The SaiNt's made some good progress with it), we can probably go from there. We probably won't have to alter, say, the minigames or worldmap, we just need to get the .EXE to run in Linux and most of the rest takes care of itself... right?

Halkun: The SaiNt's got a good point. Once we finish with VII, I'll be more than happy to help you with VIII. BTW, how's the movie coming?

[This message has been edited by Srethron Askvelhtnod (edited March 12, 2001).]
 
You guys are *really* making me want to pull my copy of FF7 out of storage and start a port of FF7 for linux, but I promised myself I would only work on 4 projects at a time.Lets see: what projects do I have currently open.

1) Linux car mp3/gps/wireless nework intagration, right now 80% complete. The computer is in the car annd plays mp3s but needs to be slimmed down and moved to the trunk, GPS and cel phone communication device needs purchased&installed. (stalled due to money issues)

2) Writing a clone of MS Windows. 5% complete. Have much groundwork done but need a lab computer to start programming on as my computer at home is being used right now and my linux box is in the car. (Made a stink about this on a mailing list, will lose face if not worked on)

3) Finding a pretty Japanese girl to marry. 50% complete. currently attending japanese class, the teacher is very attactive, but has been dating an american now for 3 years. She won't let me kill him. Will take another semester and then got to daigakuen collage in yokohama next year. Finding a pretty japanese girl is quite easy because they all are. (This project must stay open)

4) Final fantsy 8 movie. 10% done, stalled on the battle level format so I can convert them to quake 3 maps. models halfway extracted...(Made a stink about that here on this bulitin board and will lose face if I close it)

looks like I can afford the close the MS clone or the FF8 movie.

If I was to start a port of FF7 to linux two things will happen, first the source would be avilible in *standard ANSI C* and when I work with each section of the engine, each part will fall into place. I know this for a fact as I've reversed and recoded 80% of FF1 for the nes. I've also worked on about 30% of FF6 and about 15% of FF7 PSX. I see how the systems are similar and how each was coded. I may start another thread later on Zen and art of how the 6 main Final Fantasy modules flow to and from each other.  (yes there are only 6. Status, town, dungoen, battle, world, drama. Though 7 tweaked it to five. Status, field[drama, town, dungoen combined], battle, world, and minigame) but the 6 original parts still flow the same way. I have to go to bed. I have work in 7 hours.

-halkun
 
I know I can't change your mind, and I also don't want to start a flame war this time (I know you don't believe me when I say that), but it still has to be said:FF remake in strict ANSI C++???

I just can't see the point in programming such a thing in C. Making something in C just because you haven't bothered to enter the wonderful world of object oriented programming seems like so much wasted time...yes I said time. Can you give me any obvious drawbacks with polymorphism? (don't know what it is? then you never learnt object ORIENTED programming, only object programming) because I've failed to find any.

If I hadn't at least given things a try when I hated them I would still be programming in VB now. I hated C++ at first, but that was before I learnt about the standard C++ and only had seen the code of bad programmers (Microsoft's demo code for instance).

About your projects:

1) State-of-the-art cellphones can be bought for 20$ in Scandinavia but then again we are about three years ahead of US in that area...

2) You seriously believe you can make that happen? Drop it... And in C? You will end up making endless structs filled with pointers-to-functions, which is exactly the problem C++ is made to solve.

If you really feel like it I would suggest joining the "open win32 sdk" projects already out there, which aim on emulating the win32 SDK perfectly on other OSes. More programmers, less wheels reinvented, less life cycles to release date.

3) Agreed. Keep it.

4) Don't feel any pressure from me at least, can't speak for the rest...
 
Boy is this thread getting long!!!Fice, gotta agree with you on the difficulty of porting it to another OS though. Halkun seems to quite of confident about working things out so he MIGHT actually be able to pull it off. Besides, even if he doesn't manage to, I'm sure we'll gain valuable information about the file systems from his work.  :)

Halkun, Yay! If you're writing the whole source in standard ANSI C, I will actually be able to read it!!! That's a real plus for me and avoid me from having to trouble fice into translating everything for me.

There are 2 ways we can do this project:
1. Use the currrent FF7 Engine
2. Use a secondary engine like Legacy

The good points about using Legacy is that we will actually be able to change everything / anything we want after extracting the stuff from FF7. Of course we will run into certain problems though. The thing is that this approach leads to people having to d/l super large files containing all the information we use to do the remake. This makes the approach not very feasable cause many people don't want to d/l a whole 500 Megs of game files. Even if we don't use everything from the FF7 files, (let's say we use only half of it) that will still make a total of 250MB's! Besides, by actually making a new game with the stuff from FF7, we will only land ourselves with a legal battle with Squaresoft (should this remake gain enough popularity) since we will have violated their copyright rights. Using Legacy will enable everyone with or w/o FF7PC to be able to play the game (should they decide to d/l it) but we get in big trouble since we are actually distributing the ripped FF7PC files.

If we use the current FF7 engine, we will or might not be able to understand everything and thus it will limit or bar us from doing a lot of stuff. The scripts are our biggest hurdle here; but like I said earlier if we do actually manage to edit it, we're almost done with the technical part. Besides that, using the current FF7 engine will save us from including a lot of files and save us from being sued by Squaresoft. Patches will make our game edits smaller in size.

Srethron, you are right about the part that Sephiroth & Vincent sharing the same data. The same case applies to Cait Sith & Young Cloud too. The thing is with a spark of ingenuity, we can just use Sephiroth as the main character and thus prevent us from actually running into the problem. We can actually avoid from having to run into problems just by using a bit of ingenuity. For example, let's say we can't figure out how to put a cap on Seph's level to 50 before the Niblehelm scene, we can easily just change the exp requirement from level 50 to 51 to be 1 million exp or more maybe? Then we could do things like add a boss shortly after that so that the boss can give him sufficient exp to reach level 51.  :)

BTW, let's stay down to earth for the time being by just trying to solve stuff we really need before actually going into stuff like enhancements.


Till later......
 
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