[SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

  • Thread starter Thread starter orichalcon
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Like seriously don't get me wrong ff7 is a masterpiece.

But without a doubt it is a incoherent mess of a story that's is held together but amazing characters, who's motivations are fairly well fleshed out so their interactions are easily believed. It's story is a mess the dialogue scripting gave us "this guy are sick" but even with the numerous mistranslations and the caricaturisation of characters they are still well and truely beloved by many.

There was so many unfinished plot threads they were able to make not just 1 sequel but an entire compilation including 2 prequels with 3 prequels, 2 sequels and assorted novelizations as well as a requel using existing lore and plot points without the need for additional thought into new characters to make passable content
 
Like seriously don't get me wrong ff7 is a masterpiece.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't call it a masterpiece. It's a great game. VI is a masterpiece in my opinion.
 
Personal order 6,7,9,5/4,8,12,15,13------10.... 10 was so bad i legit don't understand why so many people have such an attachment to it that being said I don't manage to get past getting dog bro as a companion absolutely nothing about it grabbed me.

But I legit can't wait till I get to play remakes take on red or as he shall forever been know as labratdog
 
No one said that the original FF7's writing was perfect, but it was certainly a better implementation of the plot points than the remake. If someone thinks the original was convoluted, it sounds like someone needs to git gud at reading comprehension.
 
Reading comprehension isn't exactly a difficult thing to do.

Ima guessing you think convoluted = bad.... It doesn't but it does require characters to be compelling to not be a train wreck, which 7o had, it also has so many of imperfections overlooked because of fantastic characters and nostalgia.

5% of a games story being different to it's original makes it a terrible game overall, the story and dialogue is practically identical aside from a couple of translation tweaks and expansions on particular side characters.

There is no objective standard that it is possible to say original is a better game but you can say remake has plenty that is objectively better everything else is subjective
 
Ima guessing you think convoluted = bad....
Click to expand...
Nope. I think convoluted = difficult to follow, hence why reading comprehension is the key skill to overcome the "extreme complexity" of FF7 original's story.

It wasn't just 5% of the story from the remake that was significantly worse and less interesting, it was more like 25% (every time Sephiroth is shoved in your face devalues him as a character, every scene with plot ghosts is completely brain dead, all the side-quest sequences between main plot points, introduction of Zack at the end of the game with no context, the main story from Shinra tower onward to the end of the game, and probably more I could think of if I spent more time trying to remember).

There are many objective standards you could use to evaluate the story from the remake and the original, and I would bet nearly all of them would find the remake wanting. Stating "everything is subjective" is relativism and quickly steers discussions in pointless directions.

Also, lol at "objectivity is impossible except remake is objectively better in some things and everything else is automatically subjective because I deem it so"
 
Visually, musically, vocally, variety of play,depth of play are all objectively better in remake no matter how you slice it. While story is close enough it really shouldn't be a part of the this is better or that is better, game time is about the same

Narratively it's easier to understand the motivation of almost all characters involved, we also received a better understanding of what type of people the characters are, the story maintains its complexity, there is a clearer understanding of the the different factions involved, major plot points are given more context and gravity, emotions from the character are easier to read and understand, themes covered are more fully explored... So objectively unless it's a horror narrative it's objectively shared better then the original the only real issue is the plot ghosts, a good narrative should give you enough pieces that you should be able to reliably determine how a character should act in a given situation and cover a broad range of emotions.

Art is a subjective medium with objective criteria so yeah you can be objective while discussing art, things that bring an emotional response are subjective in nature so as soon as people start using Nomura as a reason to not like or artistic changes as an issue it become subjective, if you can keep to the actual content and quality thereof then yes you can stay objective.

So if you ignore the specifics of the story changes and focus on the contents and story building then yeah story of remake is as good as original, if not better as it is in world more believable.
 
Visually -> only the resolution of the artwork is objectively better from FF7OG to FF7RE (unless you count environmental textures, which might actually be a lower texture than the original. FF7OG doors looked more detailed than Cloud's apartment door in FF7RE).

Musically -> FF7RE is not bad but the main theme is hot garbage (shiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnneeeeeeee bbbbbbrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggghhttttt), as well as the butchering of Wallmarket's atmosphere. Anything good in FF7RE musically is derived from FF7OG (which is true for more than just the music in this game). Some of it good, some of it bad, but not better on the whole.

Vocally -> When it comes to Aerith and Zack, I would rather have NO VOICED LINES than the abysmal performances in FF7 remake. They were worse in FF7 remake than in Advent Children, how do you even mess up that bad?

Variety of Play -> Complete BS category here. The entirety of FF7OG has way more enemies, way more characters, way more materia, way more items, etc. FF7OG>>>>>>>FF7 remake when it comes to variety of anything.

Depth of play -> Can't comment here because I don't obsess over how deep I can jump into game mechanics, its not my thing. That being said, I bet hardcore FF7OG players would find the depth of FF7RE's gameplay pretty shallow.

These are objectively better no matter how you slice it, or just better because it copies modern game design?

Motivation for nearly all characters are given NO CONTEXT AT ALL in FF7 remake. If you don't have knowledge of FF7OG's story, there is no context for who Sephiroth is or why he pops up every 2 minutes whispering in Cloud's ear. There is no context for the plot ghosts or the KH/Advent Children story infusion without trying to rationalize it with extended FF7 universe media. There is no context to why Tifa is apprehensive or continually asking Cloud about his past. There is no motivation given whatsoever to Red XIII, since you only see him at the end of the game. No context for who the hell Zack is supposed to be, and actually ruins the setup for the best plot reveal in FF7OG. FF7RE gives context to nothing and ruins a lot of the setup the original game had. More cinematic presentation does not equal better writing.

FF7OG actually has setup and payoff for its plot reveals and character growth. FF7RE has absolutely none outside of the character growth for Barret.
 
Last edited:
It's like someone saying Peter Jackson's The Hobbit trilogy of movies had better writing than the original book by JRR Tolkien because it had better voice acting, better visuals, etc. When in reality, anything good in those movies are derived from the original book, and anything outside of what was explicitly written in the original is garbage.

FF7 remake is to FF7OG what Peter Jackson's The Hobbit An Unexpected Journey film is to JRR Tolkien's The Hobbit in terms of writing: derivative when good, bloated when mediocre, and extremely disappointing overall.
 
Abusive Cid would like a chat with you....as would more then mildly racist depiction of a black man....see I can cherry pick arguments to its fairly easy to poke wholes in arguments when you ignore the majority of what is actually said

Visually there is more pixels in remake clouds eyes then most of the backgrounds in og7, and the backgrounds your talking about having limited textures haven't fully loaded on today's hardware.

Cherry picking aerith and Zack for your issues with the voice acting is a poor argument cause 2 lines is all Zack has and aerith has plot reasons for some of the more suspect lines.

The music from the original is a fairly limited format that removes most of the underlying feel of the trackes where remake has a damn near lossless format with a legitimate orchestra involved, you are also the only person so far that I've seen mention any issues with remakes soundtrack

As for your 'tear down' of the narrative argument I wasn't comparing full game to remake I was comparing remake to midgar only, comparing the hobbit, with lord of the rings to just the hobbit is never gonna be fair.

Remake has more to do in midgar the og7 but that's not hard .

When you talk about interactive media then depth of content it's kind of important cause it adds to replayability because there is a higher goal then just finishing a title.

You kinda lost me when you started touting JRR tolkien dude had an amazing story to tell but God it was painful to read... Kinda like Shakespeare... This coming from someone who has no issues reading  literal translated novels and normalised translated novels
 
The music from the original is a fairly limited format that removes most of the underlying feel of the trackes where remake has a damn near lossless format with a legitimate orchestra involved, you are also the only person so far that I've seen mention any issues with remakes soundtrack
Click to expand...
You found another^^ that basically understands and supports everything that was said in this post u are refering to:)

It seems to me like to you, having better technology graphics and sound quality wise equals better graphics and music. That opinion completely ignores the feeling an environment, a sound track gives you in a specific scenario. If they give barrets weapons call of duty sounds will you also find that great cause its so flawless and real?
Same with the voice over. 7 had no voices so you cant state that its "better" in the remake. DLPB captured it quite well in his post as I did a few pages ago that in the OG you had your own interpretation of character voices, detailed looks and acting which is now stolen from you and replaced with Nomuras dbz matrix action ff7 vision
 
Last edited:
In terms of voice acting, as mentioned before, I kinda agree.

The thing with Voice acting is, it generally is a great thing in new games, adding often to immersion (If the acting is good which in this case it isnt, but thats not the point i wanna make).

The problem with adding voice acting to a remake is the same problem that books that get made into a succesful movie have, who then have the audacity to add the actors from the movie onto the cover of the new releases (which is something i absolutely HATE). It takes away alot as it robs you of your interpretation and in that way part of the experience of the characters you previously had (or voices in this case).
 
Visually, musically, vocally, variety of play,depth of play are all objectively better in remake no matter how you slice it. While story is close enough it really shouldn't be a part of the this is better or that is better, game time is about the same

Narratively it's easier to understand the motivation of almost all characters involved, we also received a better understanding of what type of people the characters are, the story maintains its complexity, there is a clearer understanding of the the different factions involved, major plot points are given more context and gravity, emotions from the character are easier to read and understand, themes covered are more fully explored... So objectively unless it's a horror narrative it's objectively shared better then the original the only real issue is the plot ghosts, a good narrative should give you enough pieces that you should be able to reliably determine how a character should act in a given situation and cover a broad range of emotions.

Art is a subjective medium with objective criteria so yeah you can be objective while discussing art, things that bring an emotional response are subjective in nature so as soon as people start using Nomura as a reason to not like or artistic changes as an issue it become subjective, if you can keep to the actual content and quality thereof then yes you can stay objective.

So if you ignore the specifics of the story changes and focus on the contents and story building then yeah story of remake is as good as original, if not better as it is in world more believable.
Click to expand...
Visuals and music have a more advanced technology behind, them, sure. Imo, the art-style in the original suits the story much better.
Because of voice acting the music design is approached differently. If they are objectively better compositions is another other question.

Don't care about the battle system, but there are a lot more strategic potential in the original, though they didn't get fully realized in the final product. As in, you don't really need all of it. But it is there. So... I dunno, speaking quantity, the original has more.

Fleshing things out does not necessarily make things better. The new narrative actually adds a whole plethora of new plot-holes (not that the original didn't have any), and stupid anime-logic (for lack of better word). Biggs, Wedge and Jessie comes off as bad, cringe-worthy characters. Sure there are some good moments, but overall cringy as hell. The orignal characters comes off as caricatures of themselves. Imo, I think that was inevitable in this art style.
The original had a better narrative structure when it comes to gameplay vs story. In FF7R the structure adds to the convolution.

Saying FF7 was a convoluted mess is not very honest. It's not THAT hard to follow.

I lold at this:
 
Alright, after watching the entire 15 h cutscene marathon on youtube from start to finish, here's my 2 cents on their new take on the story: most of the normal dialogues with NPCs and such were actually fine, and I liked most of the additional talk between the party members and Avalanche, it was kinda fun spending a bit more time with them. I didn't have a problem with the voice acting either, but maybe that's because english isn't my native language. Either way it was fine by me. The added/changed content is where most of their narrative problems lie. Some of it was good, some of it was meaningless, and others make you just shake your head in disbelief.

Now, I'm absolutely fine with adding more background to side characters as long as it is still in line with the original story and doesn't contradict it in any way. In Jesse's case, they got this right. In other cases, unfortunately, not so much. The game starts out faithfully enough, but here and there they start to roll off the track, and these moments become more frequent the further you progress in the game. And I'm not even talking about Nomura's fate-ghosts or the time-traveling Sephiroth, for even if you were to delete them from the game, there'd still remain a whole bunch of other logic errors and plotholes, some of them with a severe negative impact on the overall story. And those are simply difficult to overlook for me. I could write a long list of all the illogical, contradicting, and sometimes downright hilarious story changes that ruin the atmosphere, but that might take a while. And it's often some major plot points where they fail, sadly.
 
Alright, just finished it last night.

As a preface, I've played the original FF7 and only completed it quite recently.
I enjoyed this remake a lot, in spite of its flaws. Overall, I'd give it a 9 out of 10.
To me, Midgar is the heart of the original FF7, and my hot take is that the original gets boring after leaving Midgar and turns into more of a generic fantasy, so the idea of Midgar having its own game, I highly support. I also thought the original had some boring and nonsensical parts and bad pacing issues from time to time.

THE GOOD

I like the battle system a lot, played on standard, even if I feel like I didn't full grasp it.
I somehow beat Rufus with a Limit Break, which seemed like a very tough fight. Sephiroth seemed pretty easy. I didn't have that much of a hard time with Hell House like others have, only died once. If anything, Air Buster screwed me over multiple times. I don't know if it was just me, but Fire/Blizzard/Aero seemed useless in comparison to Thunder? Thunder just wrecked all the robots.

I loved the graphics and music. The environments in the game are breathtaking, altho I wish there were less linear corridors. They did an excellent job with Wall Market.

I liked a lot of the expansion, like seeing Cloud's and Tifa's apartments in the slums, getting to
be with Avalanche more, learning more about Aerith's history, etc.

I liked the new take on the Shinra Building and seeing it like a museum. The "Ancients hologram" really floored me.

I liked how Tifa and Barret just seemed a lot more human in this game, and I liked the moment where Tifa breaks down in Aerith's garden. I'm glad I didn't get Aerith's/Barret's scene.

I thought the voice acting was also good, but I also think FF10 has good voice acting so take my opinion with salt. I was fine with everyone's voices, and I think Tifa's a perfect case. Something which bothered me was Zack's, it just felt off in a bad way. Not sure why they couldn't get a better soundalike.

I don't mind the timeline shenanigans, I think it breathes a lot of new life in this story. I can see why it would annoy purists, but to me, it sort of feels like I'm experiencing something with more weight, as a sequel. It sort of makes me feel more connected to the characters and story more in a way.

I got pretty emotional during Aerith's and Marlene's hug since I can relate to the subject of childhood trauma and losing your "home". It's really amazing how giving characters voices and going more into their histories just helps you bond with them more.

THE BAD
Aerial combat feels sluggish and awful.

I honestly have no idea why Roche and Leslie were in this story, they seemed a bit superfluous. I also don't see why Biggs survived, especially after his fakeout death. Imo, Biggs and Jessie should've died at the tower, and Wedge should've been revealed to be alive much later, like near the end of it. It would give us more time to let their deaths sink in a bit, but they reveal Wedge is alive not long after the plate fall.

Some things I found not-so-great were the padding (some areas went on for way too long like the sewers and Hojo's lab) and the robot arm segments.

Spoiler-wise, I really hope Zack isn't alive, it would ruin the remake a lot. I hope it turns out he died some other way in the alternative timeline (just because he survived the army showdown, it doesn't mean the whispers didn't Final Destination him later). The ending *is* confusing, and I think that's a bad thing here. I guess they want to keep fans talking for years, but I would've preferred something more concrete.

The game also suffered from some annoying gamey stuff, like repeating NPC dialog which takes me out of the experience. You can also knock chairs across the Shinra cafeteria and no one reacts. It comes off as silly.

I also got two glitches in my playthrough, one was a small one where Tifa walked through a table, the other one seemed to make Jenova Dreamweaver not spawn tentacles, forcing me to reload.

THE FUTURE

I'm very sad we won't get another installment for another few years. I hope the team seriously takes advice. I hope we don't get more than 3 parts.

I'm also a bit sad that this remake fell short of certain people's expectations. It's clear that a lot of love and effort was put into it.
 
Last edited:
I also don't see why Biggs survived, especially after his fakeout death. Imo, Biggs and Jessie should've died at the tower, and Wedge should've been revealed to be alive much later, like near the end of it. It would give us more time to let their deaths sink in a bit, but they reveal Wedge is alive not long after the plate fall.
Click to expand...
IMO, having them survive is not a great thing, period.  Although you only get to know them a bit, the deaths of the Avalanche members... That's the point where you realize that Shinra is DEAD SERIOUS about stopping Avalanche, and they don't care how many people die to do it.  It also has a profound effect on Barret that's probably going to be lost.  Anybody ask why Barret's going to turn leadership over to Cloud in the remake, when in the original he did it because the deaths of his team members made him realize that he wasn't cut out to be a leader?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top