[SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

[-Ric-]

Barret's character is already 1000 times better in the remake than in the original. I'm not worried one bit.

 

[gjoerulv]

Hmmm, I guess the arbiters of fate failed to make him a 1000 worse than what he is in the remake.

 

[-Ric-]

They did fail. Not as terribly as your attempt at a joke but hey, at least you tried.

Barret's character in the original is a complete moron, that throws random tantrums, has 0 leadership qualities and has no idea what's going on 90% of the time. He's basically retarded.

Barret's character in the remake is actually intelligent, shown to have real leadership skills. While he still has temperament issues, he's way more calculated about it. The way his relationship develops with Cloud throughout the game is way deeper and more enjoyable than in the original. You get to see distrust and bad taste jokes slowly turning into respect, co-operation and even friendship. All scenes with Marlene are also way deeper than they were in the original. You get to see Avalanche's leader, the hardheaded and the soft, caring father. And all sides are displayed beautifully.

So yeah, make all the dumb jokes you want, Barret is a far better character in the remake than he ever was in the original.

 

[-Ric-]

And that's fine. However, the character is different in the remake. And in this case,  different=better. You'll probably disagree though, which is fine. We already know the remake is the worst thing to ever happen in your opinion. But I personally find the character way more relatable to in the remake and way more interesting. It's a joy to have Barret in the group. It's the character that was done the best in my opinion.

 

[sackyachouchie]

I actually surprised at how close Barret from remake matched Barret from the Beacause retranslation (both of which were better than the original localization IMO). I was impressed at just how much of a difference a proper translation/localization effort can make, and how Nojima kept the spirit of that character in the remake. They definitely did Barret justice in the remake, and I really liked his voice acting, and thought the voice actor provided a relatively nuanced performance despite the character being so bombastic.

However, I can't help but feel remake's Barret either won't go through or won't have the justification to go through the character development Barret experiences in the original from his failures as a leader. All the impact is removed from the story in general, and I think a lot of that blame can be laid at Toriyama and Nomura's feet.

I think Nojima deserves credit for the characters being written in a much better and more faithful way than at any other point in the FF7 compilation (which were garbage in terms of capturing the characters, IMO).

 

[gjoerulv]

Calling Barret a complete moron isn't honest though. Same as calling FF7 a convoluted mess.

If he is "better" is one thing, but he certainly isn't the same character. At least not the same Barret as he was at the start of FF7. In the original, he is pretty much consumed with his revenge towards shinra. Pretty much everything he acts out is hate aimed towards shinra, in some form, be it direct or underlying. He justifies his action by calling it "saving the planet", though it really is to satisfy his shinra hate boner. Only when he interacts with Marlene is the hate truly gone.
In the "remake" they make him less consumed; a "good guy" and when he does have tantrums, they are often exaggerated.
FF7O Barret wouldn't make silly jokes in the first mission. FF7O Barret wouldn't go back to sector 7 to check on things after the plate fell. After he knew Marlene was safe, and after making excuses to Elmyra, the mission was back on.

I'm not saying he is a totally different character, but by "fleshing him out" they remove some, and they add some. Some for the better. Most of it because he needs to be "likeable", which, imo, is rather transparent. Again, marketing.

And my joke was funny  ;D ;D

 

[sackyachouchie]

Calling Barret a complete moron isn't honest though. Same as calling FF7 a convoluted mess.

I agree 100% with this. I think the retranslation makes this even more apparent.

If he is "better" is one thing, but he certainly isn't the same character. At least not the same Barret as he was at the start of FF7. In the original, he is pretty much consumed with his revenge towards shinra. Pretty much everything he acts out is hate aimed towards shinra, in some form, be it direct or underlying. He justifies his action by calling it "saving the planet", though it really is to satisfy his shinra hate boner. Only when he interacts with Marlene is the hate truly gone.
In the "remake" they make him less consumed; a "good guy" and when he does have tantrums, they are often exaggerated.
FF7O Barret wouldn't make silly jokes in the first mission. FF7O Barret wouldn't go back to sector 7 to check on things after the plate fell. After he knew Marlene was safe, and after making excuses to Elmyra, the mission was back on.

I'm not sure I agree with this because no one goes back to check on sector 7, but to say that Tifa wouldn't, for example, because she didn't in the original is hard for me to believe. It's hard for me to believe that the Barret that experience his own hometown burning wouldn't feel anything for the people of sector 7. I think in OG he was wreckless and irresponsible as a leader due to being blinded by hatred for Shinra, but I don't think he was ever heartless. I also don't find it a stretch that Barret has a sense of humor, since he was always throwing shade at Cloud from the beginning in OG, not to mention the stairs in Shinra HQ infiltration.

I'm not saying he is a totally different character, but by "fleshing him out" they remove some, and they add some. Some for the better. Most of it because he needs to be "likeable", which, imo, is rather transparent. Again, marketing.

I agree with this to an extent, but I think this is a bit exaggerated. He is about 95%+ the same in FF7 Remake as he is in FF7 OG. You have to really stretch out the details to say he is very different at all.

 

[gjoerulv]

but to say that Tifa wouldn't, for example, because she didn't in the original is hard for me to believe. It's hard for me to believe that the Barret that experience his own hometown burning wouldn't feel anything for the people of sector 7. I think in OG he was wreckless and irresponsible as a leader due to being blinded by hatred for Shinra, but I don't think he was ever heartless.

I'm not suggesting he is heartless. It's his emotions that drives him, 'cause he lost so much dear to him. At this point in the story, Barret wouldn't be onboard going back IF the choice was between that and rescue Aerith. If he was pushed to do it, he would reluctantly follow, probably being angry about it. Tifa would not be angry, and agree to follow. Tifa is quick to agree to go to the HQ mainly because of Cloud.

Also, the situation in the remake is different. In the original there is little to suggest this many people survived. What we consistently see during the plate incident is that people don't want to leave. Not that there couldn't be any big evacuation operation going on in the original.

I agree with this to an extent, but I think this is a bit exaggerated. He is about 95%+ the same in FF7 Remake as he is in FF7 OG. You have to really stretch out the details to say he is very different at all.

Hmm, welp, if people agree he is this similar, 95%+, then I guess he is only 1.05 better in the remake at most. ;D ;D
Not sure what you mean by stretch out the details. Nitpicky? Imo, the differences is not only the small details, but he is more similar than different, I think anyone would agree to that.

 

[sackyachouchie]

Hmm, welp, if people agree he is this similar, 95%+, then I guess he is only 1.05 better in the remake at most. ;D ;D

That is actually my opinion. I think the plus minus on Barret is 5% in either direction. If he is better, it wouldn't be much. If he is worse, I don't think it would be much either. But, we are also talking about Barret, who I think was one of the better attempts at portraying an OG character in this game. Out of the OG cast that they attempted to portray in remake, I think they were closest with Cloud and Barret.

Aerith's voice actress kills her character for me, so I can't even judge the writing properly.

Tifa is okay, but it seems like they really focused on her apprehension about Cloud's past rather than her attachment to him (which is perhaps a more important character trait). She seems slightly off to me.

There is too little of Red XIII for me to judge much.

I think they butchered Zack with his voice acting as well.

Sephiroth is diminished at least 10% by every unnecessary inclusion in the story, and by at %20 for each time he whispers anime tropes in Cloud's ear.

Biggs, Jessie, and Wedge were pretty good IMO, but I can definitely see how their "development" might not be stylistically or tonally consistent with the original, or to the tastes of the OG fans other than myself.

So really I think they did a good job with Cloud and Barret's characters, and could have done better with everyone else in the main cast.

Not sure what you mean by stretch out the details. Nitpicky? Imo, the differences is not only the small details, but he is more similar than different, I think anyone would agree to that.

That's pretty much what I meant. I think these details are within the margin of error of interpretation. That doesn't mean they aren't possibly valid, I just think its a stretch to state it as a fact, let alone a very consequential fact if so.

 

[-Ric-]

Calling Barret a complete moron isn't honest though.

Hm it kinda is though. He is by far the least intelligent person in the group. Yes, including Cait Sith. Since he's controlled by Reeve and it's pretty clear that Reeve is far more intelligent than Barret, and including Yuffie, whom despite being a kid, actually manages to trick the entire party and steal everyone's Materia. Crap, even the Materia tutorial at the start of the game makes him sound like a complete buffoon. Same thing happens when Cloud is telling the story of his mission with Sephiroth in Nibelheim. It's actually sad that the leader of Avalanche is portrayed as complete donkey. Granted they were never meant to look like a well organized and capable terrorist gang but come on.

I don't know about translation mods and I don't care either. I'd rather stick with the official material even if it is flawed. I haven't even bothered with the PC version of the game in years as it takes longer to properly get all mods to work great together and bug-free than it does to Platinum the game on the PS4 lol. If they ever make it to an official release, hit me up and let me know. Until then, they mean crap to me. And they never will make it to an official release so that's that.

When I compare the Barret of the original game, from start to the end of Midgar ONLY, it's clear that the Barret in the remake is far more intelligent, far more calculated, far more funny, cares for Marlene far more and the development of his relationship with Cloud throughout the game is just so much more enjoyable to watch.

This is, of course, just my opinion. I totally understand if you don't agree.

 

[Devina]

I would argue Aerith is even more unintelligent than Barret.

When Avalanche bombs the sector, you find her strolling along, unphased while everyone else is panicking trying to get to safety. Her survival instincts aren't great.

Aerith goes on her own to find the city of the ancients, despite that Sephiroth is roaming the planet trying to oppose them, instead of staying with the group for safety which could've affected her survival.

Aerith writes 89 letters to Zack, and concludes he must've ditched her for another woman, despite how intimate they were. Give him the benefit of the doubt, jeez. You think she would've figured out after the 30th letter that something's wrong.

In the remake, she takes her sweet time trying to rescue Marlene during the plate fall. Grab the kid and go, don't spend 3 minutes talking to her.

 

[-Ric-]

I would argue Aerith is even more unintelligent than Barret.

When Avalanche bombs the sector, you find her strolling along, unphased while everyone else is panicking trying to get to safety. Her survival instincts aren't great.

Aerith goes on her own to find the city of the ancients, despite that Sephiroth is roaming the planet trying to oppose them, instead of staying with the group for safety which could've affected her survival.

Aerith writes 89 letters to Zack, and concludes he must've ditched her for another woman, despite how intimate they were. Give him the benefit of the doubt, jeez. You think she would've figured out after the 30th letter that something's wrong.

In the remake, she takes her sweet time trying to rescue Marlene during the plate fall. Grab the kid and go, don't spend 3 minutes talking to her.

She has successfully avoided Shinra's attempts to take her for years. Granted that they did not want to harm her, or else they could've easily forced her to go along from the start but still, it's a decent feat. She also gets around the slums on her own, despite all the dangers. She's not physically strong or "tough" and she's definitely no genius but she's not Barret-dumb either.

She also doesn't go to the City of the Ancients on her own out of stupidity, she knew exactly what could/would happen. She chose to go alone and attempt to cast Holy.

In the remake, she doesn't spend THAT long talking with Marlene either. Just enough to calm her down, gain her trust and take her to safety.

 

[Devina]

You just admitted, Aerith decided to go alone, and that's what strikes me as terribly selfish and stupid. Imagine if Yuna decided to say to her guardians "screw ya'll, I'm going to do this pilgrimage myself". Aerith is aware Sephiroth is out there, the guy with a huge sword who impaled a giant snake. Even Barret is smart enough to ask "why did she go herself?!"

I played the original translation of FF7, not Beacause, and I don't remember Barret being stupid or throwing random tantrums. I remember Barret asking a lot of questions, but that doesn't necessarily make him stupid, just inquisitive.

If anything, I feel the remake's Barret is more hot-headed and can't control himself. For example, in the elevator scene in the beginning, Cloud pisses off Barret. In the original, Barret shakes his hand while looking away, but ultimately holds it in. In the remake, Barret is like SAY THAT AGAIN and is basically shouting at Cloud for not caring about the planet. There is a scene of Barret threatening Shinra employees in the remake which I don't remember in the original. Also, in the remake, Barret throws an angry fit because Cloud scared Marlene, which I thought was extreme.

I was also disappointed that the remake left out the part where Barret says about Cloud's pay "but that gil is for Marlene's schooling!"

 

[-Ric-]

Selfish, absolutely. Stupid too obviously due to the outcome it had but not "dumb". She knew what would happen. She simply chose to sacrifice herself to save everyone.

There is a scene of Barret threatening Shinra employees in the remake which I don't remember in the original. Also, in the remake, Barret throws an angry fit because Cloud scared Marlene, which I thought was extreme.

If you mean the train scene, the same scene exists in the original. He nearly shoots the poor employee. In the original elevator scene, Cloud mostly just doesn't care about the speech. In the remake, he actually makes fun of Barret and tells him to get help (for hearing the planet talk, implying he needs mental help). So yeah, "say that again!" is not too unexpected of a reaction when you tell someone they need help with their mental state lol. And it's that same distrust and anger he has towards Cloud that makes their relationship great in the remake. You see it slowly changing and turning into respect, trust and even a bit of friendship.

 

[IlMomo86]

You just admitted, Aerith decided to go alone, and that's what strikes me as terribly selfish and stupid. Imagine if Yuna decided to say to her guardians "screw ya'll, I'm going to do this pilgrimage myself".

I think that Yuna would. That is, if at some point Yuna realized that Tidus had somehow become the group leader and center and yet Tidus is a mythomaniac liar who attempted to strangle her, possibly because he is actually controlled by the enemy, say if once or twice Seymour gave orders and Tidus fell in trance and obeyed. Especially if Tidus has thrown a speech hours before, about getting a certain mass-destruction weapon before Seymour because Seymour has so many mindless slaves who could throw their life away to get the weapon for him, and then it is demonstrated that the mindless slave was none other than Tidus itself, who did in fact provide the mass-destruction weapon for Seymour.

Among all this, Yuna is also in love with Tidus, or what she perceives to be Tidus.

Yes, I think in such circumstances Yuna would distance herself from Tidus immediately. In Yuna's case the group is more connected to her than to Tidus, in Cloud's case is the opposite. Another reason to do exactly what Aeris did.

For as much as I utterly prefer Tifa, selfishness and stupidity hardly are traits of Aeris. Would nullify the whole story if they were, actually, since Aeris ultimately saves the day.

You know, I've spent most of my teenage and twenties saying that FF7 was an overrated game and undeservedly overshadowing other JRPGs but I'm in my thirties now and looking back, it's surprising to re-discover how foreseeing, vast, cohesive and deep the narrative was. I think most people don't even realize it fully. Which brings us to the next:

I don't mind the timeline shenanigans, I think it breathes a lot of new life in this story. I can see why it would annoy purists, but to me, it sort of feels like I'm experiencing something with more weight, as a sequel. It sort of makes me feel more connected to the characters and story more in a way.

I have an hard time realizing how you could think that Zack&co returning to life is a problem for the story themes and meaning and yet not despise the very same narrative device that made this insult of a plot twist possibile. A lone chapter was enough to destroy most of the FF7 themes all in a single shot, I am amazed about how lightheartedly people are taking this.

And purism have nothing to do with it. Screw Purists. But who are purists anyway? Nobody denies that the game was flat-out great because, and not despite, its differences. There were a lot of things that where entirely different in this FF7R, and all for the better. Biggs, Jessie, the Avalanche, Wutai, the Turks, Wall Market, Beautiful Bro, Honey Bee, Hojo's Lab, Barret. All different and revamped, and all utterly awesome. Why? Because they took the original and made expanded, modernized and re-imagined takes of it.

Chap18 is a different beast. It's spitting on all the themes that gave the story meaning and impact, and turning them to a childish Kingdomhearted narration where death, time, tragedy, effort, self-conscience and even ecology are all meaningless. And it was possibile with timelines and broken destinies. If that's what you call breathing new life in a story, well, you certainly are an happier person than I am right now.

 

[Devina]

Aerith went totally alone, and she was the last Cetra so she should've realized how important her life was. She was the only one who could obtain Holy, and if she didn't, the planet could be doomed. While sure, Cloud was acting sort of insane and possessed, she could've brought other teammates along with her for protection. Instead, they split into a "Aerith vs everyone else" party. This is the same logic why people shouldn't go alone in horror movies. Everyone just got lucky that Aerith was able to control the Lifestream in her death, if she wasn't powerful enough, then everyone would've died.

I don't see how adding some new themes (destiny, fate) is an insult. It's possible for a story to have multiple themes. It's not like they're going to be talking about light and darkness KH-style every hour in Part 2. Are the ecological themes suddenly removed from the story due to chapter 18? No, they're not. It's also extremely early to see where they're going with this. They could be using it to make things even more tragic, being unable to stop Aerith's death a second time. There's a chance Zack still died in another way, and perhaps Biggs will also end up dying. When the sector falls, they still portray it in a way to make you think Biggs and Jessie and Wedge all died, and Biggs/Jessie have much longer death scenes to make their roles and deaths seem more meaningful.

I also find it a bit offensive when people call Kingdom Hearts "childish", as if that's KH in a nutshell. Yes, KH is aimed at children as a demographic, but they also keep older fans in mind, which is why they add their insane tough critical modes, superbosses, etc. I grew up with KH, and it taught me a lot of deep themes about friendship, pursuing your own path, not giving up when things seem hopeless, etc. Just because a story has multiple timelines and time travel, it doesn't automatically make it childish.

 

[IlMomo86]

she could've brought other teammates along with her for protection.

When you catch up with Seph/Jenova he is already at the northern crater with Black Materia. Consider that Aeris has to call Holy ASAP (which she ultimately does, but Sephiroth then contains it at the Planet's core). She's short on time. Finally, and most importantly, she should have convinced the group that
A: ditching Cloud's leadership was necessary (sort of easy, at that point, but not guaranteed)
and
B: summoning a spell that could potentially kill many or every human being was a good solution (not easy at all)
All while, I remark, she was pretty short on time. And consider that the only member in the party showing more connection with Aeris than others is Yuffie, which is sort of unreliable, and maybe RedXIII; Yuffie, like Cid and Caith Sith, cares a lot about worldly matters and would hardly play along with a plan that involves Holy. Though that is up to debate since in the end the party is convinced that Holy is necessary (that is, though, after Meteor proves indestructible), so yeah, maybe she could have spilled the beans. In the end, though, I'm not sure it would've changed that much.

I honestly suspect you didn't pay attention to the story in some steps the story takes.

I don't see how adding some new themes (destiny, fate) is an insult. It's possible for a story to have multiple themes.

Sure thing. As long as these themes don't contradict themselves. Many of the themes of FF7 are straight-up broken by what was presented in chap18. And besides, it also matters that you know how to handle these new themes (destiny, fate) and they're handed poorly. I'm not voicing my mere opinion here, though. I could write a demonstration, easily. But since it's a bit long, I'll put it in a following post and in a block, you may jump it if you're not interested.

It's not like they're going to be talking about light and darkness KH-style every hour in Part 2.

Probably not, no. But just saying "relax, it's not like it will be all like chap18!" speaks enough of chap18 actual quality compared to the rest of the content.

Are the ecological themes suddenly removed from the story due to chapter 18? No, they're not.

Suddenly removed, no; put at risk, yes. See the spoiler blocks in the following post if you're interested.

It's also extremely early to see where they're going with this. They could be using it to make things even more tragic, being unable to stop Aerith's death a second time. There's a chance Zack still died in another way, and perhaps Biggs will also end up dying. When the sector falls, they still portray it in a way to make you think Biggs and Jessie and Wedge all died, and Biggs/Jessie have much longer death scenes to make their roles and deaths seem more meaningful.

Once again, saying "relax! Zack is alive, but there's a chance he'll die regardless!" is a good signal of how good of a choice is to make some deaths who where definitive and certain (Zack, Biggs, Jessie, etc) as temporary and modifiable events. You're basically saying that you're happy knowing (or rather, believing) that they'll get back on-track, and yet going off track was good still. I don't get this logic.

And it's terribly meta-narrative too. It assumes that only those who played the original FF7 will play the remake, so certain events can carry their weight only if made uncertain. But for new players, what's the meaning of the Zack scene? None.

Just because a story has multiple timelines and time travel, it doesn't automatically make it childish.

A story can be very mature even involving resurrections, or time travel, or timelines. The point is what you do with it. Childish narrative is childish when it doesn't take responsability, and writes only what makes the writer or the reader or both the happiest, without any regard for the premises, rules and themes of the story. I'd certainly have been happier as a 11 year old if Aeris just came back at the end of the game, but she didn't. And that made the story more meaningful and good. Making me "happier" back then would have been childish.

 

[IlMomo86]

FF7 themes: 1.acceptance 2.loss 3.ecology 4.consumism/fake news 5.cosmic horror&psychology (aka: Sephiroth)
FF7R themes: 1.destiny 2.freedom

For all the FF7 themes the whispers-subplot changes do more harm than good.

For the FF7R themes the whispers-subplot is handled poorly.


FF7 themes:

Spoiler

1. acceptance
Destiny and fate are hardly suited for a protagonist that is the entire opposite of a chosen hero. Cloud is such an amazing protagonist because he is weak, petty, unstable, and even submissive. He is presented as a somewhat cool jerk but then revealed to be a weakling, an impostor and pretty much a serf to evil, which makes his initial pretended coolness even more upsetting. He rises up from that through humility, sincerity, acceptance, friendship and effort. Proposing him as someone chosen by the Planet's planned Destiny, a fated hero to face with Sephiroth  on equal terms (and they even interact on equal terms, something that Sephiroth did never do in the original game) undermines all of it. Cloud was chosen by no one and became a hero through an hard path. The Planet had no "plan" for Cloud, in fact the only one who had a plan for Cloud is Sephiroth, a plan Cloud follows through until he accepts who he really is. Throw in that the Planet has a destiny for him and you diminish all of this.

2. loss
What's the point of an irreplaceable loss if there are multiple timelines? If you can fight destiny and negate death, even deaths that have already happened? The tragedy of death is that it is final and irreversible, a story about death that want a tiny bif of educational value should respect that. As the story is headed now, to convey a sense of loss you should make the point that timelines are multiple but certain events still happen no matter what and/or timelines cannot interact with each other. Meaning you'll have to contradict and nullify your own premises. Otherwise, the concept of loss is greatly devalued. See Rick&Morty, where alt. timelines carry the necessary consequence that the universe-travelers are emotionally detatched and depressed since nothing matters much. No surprises that everyone is saying: "keep calm! Aeris will still die somehow I'm sure!" which in and of itself shows that opening up the chance that she doesn't is already a pejorative change.

3. ecology
As I said, I think you missed a few story steps. The original game left open to interpretation if Holy killed humanity or not, or if didn't kill humanity but destroyed big metropolis like Midgar, Junon, etc. This was a beautiful counter-point to the human assumption that humanity=good; the characters mention this, saying that safety of the Planet is in itself something to fight for since without the Planet the demise of the human race is not a risk but a certainty, so they go along with Aeris plan. This was already devalued in Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus, who postulated that Holy did just some unspecified damage to Midgar and nothing more. RedXIII in the remake explicitly says that the "written" future (with the Midgar ruined and covered in vegetation) is one to avoid, meaning that summoning Holy and allowing it to defend the Planet is likely a "bad ending". Which strongly implies that the good ending is a far less controversial way to neutralize Meteor without bothering humans. Further implied by the fact that the whispers are the will of the Planet according to RedXIII, so beating the whispers means opposing the Planet. The provoking trope of: who's better, the Planet or Humans? Is gone.

4. consumism and fake news
that is arguably treated and shown better in the remake than in the original, and nothing about chap18 undervalues it directly, it just overshadows the whole theme of "we are a band of rogues in a world that thinks that Shinra is progress and comfort". Since speaking of a consumist society who willingly refuses to believe the truth in order to preserve their convenience is a very down-to-earth matter, and borders into politicaly commentary; inevitably "fighting fate incarnate" drives the plot away from it.

5. cosmic horror&psychology
the villain of FF7 was a succesful combination of different themes. Seph in himself is a de-humanized person created by Shinra to function as a propaganda tool and living weapon, so he is in a way the personification of humanity's sins. But he is also credible psychologically. His extreme loneliness, fragile identity, need for a mother's affection and founded sense of estrangement are all very sound reasons to do what he does. He essentially aspires to merge with every soul and become everybody, both punishing humanity for making a tool of him, erasing his identity problem and finding a "mother"; he is coherent, and thus well-written. Jenova, on the other hand, is a lovecraftian shapeshifting alien who merges with every body and psyche and then moves to the next planet, so it's perfectly coherent that she profits from having Sephiroth as a powerful vessel. The boundaries between Sephiroth and Jenova are unclear, as both share the same goal and view the other as a very crucial part of themselves or even as the necessary evolution of themselves. Both are coherent antagonists in their motivations and coherent one to the other. Good writing. This masterpiece relationship was already devalued by Nomura stating that Sephiroth's will has erased Jenova in an interview years later (which was contradicted anyway by Nomura himself via Advent Children, Dirge of Cerberus, Crisis Core etc)  and in chap18 is entirely thrown out of the window, by making Sephiroth show more interest in Cloud and Cloud's doing -with interactions that are a far cry from their original ones- than in merging with the lifestream. In the Sec5 Church sequence Sephiroth even states to Cloud in japanese "I am your tyrant" (in english: "I am your everything") something Sephiroth would never ever say in the original game, where he considers Cloud just another one of his pawns. In short, Sephiroth is re-elaborated as Cloud's personal nemesis and tormentor, or "Cloud's inner darkness" as Nomura stated when talking about their relationship in (remarkably) Kingdom Hearts. The disparity in interactions between the two were extremely disturbing in the original, as they also hinted to Cloud's lies, besides Sephiroth's trascendent nature. So in short yes, chap18 did much of a disservice to Sephiroth's character as it possibly could.

FF7R themes

Spoiler

1. Destiny
Postulating that the Planet has a "plan" specified for every individual is already a fragile narrative choice, but it becomes downright absurd if the "plan" has to be concretely executed by some invisibile specters. Destiny has a meaning as a concept when physical events and people actions (and thus, their will) are manipulated into a global plan, not if there is a thinking entity that orders some specters to contradict what actually happens. The whispers are not really overseeing fate, they are retconning reality. Which they could do if they either are outside of a self-consistent time (like the aliens in the movie Arrival) and therefore no one would have a prayer of harming them unless they intended, or they are ineffible, omniscient and all-powerful beings with their own agenda (like the Occuria of FF12) which would make THEM those who "defy destiny", actually, and wrecking their plans by beating the sh** out of them impossible, moreso with the limited power Cloud&co have at that point. They are entirely illogical no matter how you slice it. But assuming they were, and with a few slices shots and punches you can somehow "break" destiny, it makes sense if the road of destiny is opened AFTER the event, not before it; meaning you could get Aeris to live, but not Zack (or Biggs, etc); and if somehow it's broken even before it, why is it broken at some points and not others? Why the destiny of Zack's death should be rewritten and not that of Zack's birth? Or has beating a bunch of ghosts on a highway in Midgar opened a Schroedinger wide range of millions of parallel timelines including some where Zack or Cloud or Sephiroth or mankind was never born? Only extremely coherent and attentive writers can manage timeline altering, and the writing here is entirely incoherent to its own premises.

Now when you make your own fantasy laws in a fantasy story and you cannot follow them yourself, what is it? Bad writing.

2. Freedom: here it gets entirely meta-narrative. Because it's not the characters freedom that was obtained by beating the whispers, as the character are none the wiser than before; it was the writers. The characters are blindfolded about fate as they were in the original timeline where fate didn't even get into consideration. Therefore either 1)beating the whispers bear no consequence or 2)the characters start behaving in a fundamentally different way and making fundamentally different choices without rhyme or reason or 3)the characters must from now on follow the lead of someone who sees beyond destiny be it Seph, Aeris, Bugenhagen or whatever, to make use of the branching paths they opened, since they themselves have no clue.

Which means essentially means than in 1) and 2) it's flat-out bad writing as it disregards cause-effect, in case 3) they are less free now than they were before. In short, it's not Cloud&co's freedom you fought for in chap18, it's Nomura's, Kitase's etcetera.

Keep in mind that none of this is proof that part2 will suck. At all. It only proves how narratively misplaced and bad the changes of chap18 are and most part2's good will come from getting back on track, if they do.

 

[Devina]

Aerith could've brought Barret with her at least for protection, since I feel Tifa might not want to abandon Cloud.

I think the plot being set in another timeline (or "going off track" as you call it) is good just because I find it interesting, entertaining and exciting, and makes me feel like I'm having a new journey, rather than the same one I had before, just in HD. It's a remake, and everyone should know that remakes tend to change things up and add new concepts and ideas, which is why I think the hate for the ending is overblown. People should expect it.

Also, I don't think the remake assumes everyone has played the original. I think the point of the remake's ending is to entice people to play the original and Crisis Core, which is fine by me. Is the timeline stuff confusing? Sure, but it's also been confusing for people who have played the original. They don't spend more than 5-10 mins of this 40 hour game on this "original timeline" idea, so I see it as more as a bonus to those who've played the original, not a requirement that people must play the original first. Nearly all the major plot beats are the same.

And maybe I didn't always pay attention. It's a long game, and when people start talking about spells and ancient prophecies and what not, I zone out a bit.

 

[Kefka]

It's a remake, and everyone should know that remakes tend to change things up and add new concepts and ideas, which is why I think the hate for the ending is overblown. People should expect it.

Except for the fact that Square Enix has already done faithful remakes of FF games in the past (think FF3 and FF4 on the DS), and unlike this remake here, they stayed VERY faithful to their original stories. They merely tweaked a few gameplay mechanics, and added names and a slight glimpse of personality to the FF3 protagonists, but the stories were otherwise untouched. So it was only natural that many players expected a similar approach here, especially since the developers stated in interviews multiple times over the years that they only plan on EXPANDING the original story, but not ALTERING it altogether (and if that wasn't a flat out LIE, then I don't know what is). Take for example this interview from March 2020, merely weeks before the release:

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/final-fantasy-7-remake-is-a-very-faithful-recreati/1100-6475164/

Also, I think most people aren't upset that there are changes to the story per se, but rather due to the fact that most of these changes were for the worse (that list is VERY long indeed), and in the whispers' case even pretty much openly declared the story of the original to be null and void now.

As others have already stated, there are certain steps and rules that authors must follow if they want their plot device to work properly. a) They have to set it up in advance by leaving hints all along the way before the plot twist happens to make sure that it doens't feel arbitrary or contrived, and b) they have to make sure that any new additional elements still fit within the overall world and lore of their respective story, or it will feel wierd and out of place to the audience. This latter point is especially important when dealing with a world and lore that have already been firmly established and well-defined for many years! In the whispers' case, they apparently did neither.

A plot device in a remake is simply not good when the possibilty of it's existence has never even been hinted at anywere in the original game (nor in any of the compilation material) and was only just made up for this remake, thereby creating the feeling that it came completely out of nowhere, for no logical reason.

A plot device is even worse when it clearly and openly contradicts elements from the original plot.

And a plot device is the worst imaginable when it even contradicts its very own reason for existence, in this case "keeping time/fate on track", because sometimes the whispers do the exact opposite of that: They attacked 7th Heaven until Jesse broke her ankle, making sure that she and Wedge wouldn't come along on the second bombing mission, when in the original timeline, they did come along. They saved Wedge from the plate drop by teleporting him away even though in the original timeline, he died there. Indeed it seems like Nomura has a hard time following even his own premises!

So the problem with the whispers was not only that it was a new and bad Deus-ex-machina-like plot device, but that it was also implemented in a very clumsy and poor way.

Nearly all the major plot beats are the same.

I beg to differ, as that's exactly where they screwed up most of the time. Even without the whole time-travel-stuff, there's illogical, badly written scenes all over the place. The instances where their additions/changes were for the better are the exception rather than the rule. Off the top of my head, I can only think of two: visiting Jesse's parents, and having Tseng talk to the party over a monitor rather than being present only seconds before the plate falls. Pretty much all other changes/additions they made were either unnecessary or even detrimental to the story (and as I said, that list is LONG).