The Promise of PC

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Vettvilling

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Salutations, Qhimmites/Qhimmians/Qhimmer/Qhimmies/Whatever Demonym you favour hereabouts.

After recently recovering my cache of Playstation games from the attic I've decided to see what the ten-odd years have wrought upon my perception of my favourite games for aforementioned system, Final Fantasy VII and VIII. My original Playstation having long since given up the ghost and my Playstation 2 having fallen long out of favour, I've decided to see what improvement Playstation emulators might offer. I've taken quite a bit of time and configured ePSXe just so well that I've not regretted this decision, the capacity via Pete's OpenGL2 plug-in to alter the shaders and make other video adjustments is a massive improvement over the original PSX, and with my Dualshock controller being run through a USB converter from Radioshack the controls are familiar. As I've already sunk some 48 hours into this new playthrough of VII I must confide that I've found myself at once delighted and appalled; the former as it stands up as a wonderful game beyond the nostalgia filter and the latter in the knowledge that Square has completely lost their way. I've long since digressed...

I somehow found myself in these forums a few days ago whilst trying to ascertain the hidden numbers involved in chocobo breeding, I'm keen to produce a thoroughbred, and became aware of the many still ongoing projects to improve upon these games. It seems as though most of the promising and functional modifications are particular to the PC edition, which I do not myself possess, though I have noticed the convenient FAQ to guide one in such an acquisition. Frankly, however, given that I have three sets of discs for the Playstation version I'm hardly keen to shell out for the novelty of a technically different but functionally indiscernible version unless these modifications are properly impressive.

What's truly on my mind to discover is whether or not anyone can provide my with their own, relatively objective (as I concede subjectivity is unavoidable), opinion regarding the improvement of the experience offered through these mod projects, both completed and ongoing, over the ePSXe-enhanced experience with the original discs. Thus the question is one of which is best after improvement, for if my memory serves me I was unimpressed with the original PC ports the few times I saw them. The question applies equally and independently to VII and VIII, for I intend to have another go at the latter if and when I properly wrap up the former. Mind, the projects I think most interesting include being able to use improved sound files, improved visuals via aali's custom driver, and replaced models/textures/backgrounds.

I apologise for being winded and hope I'm not too unclear, I hope for and appreciate any sincere and helpful responses.
 
Final fantasy 7 for PC is FAR superior to the PSX version.. since there are mods for almost everything already including field backgrounds, menu/battle interface/difficulty patches.. Re-textured world maps... Re-translated script..  You name it! just browse this section a bit https://www.ff7catalog.com/

about Final fantasy 8... well there are a few mods for them but nothing really "big" yet and i always have trouble with the pc version of ff8... so psx version is more then fine for now.. however IF u have the chance to, get the pc version of ff8 aswell.. cause even if there's nothing big for it released today.. there might be tomorrow.
 
I personally find that the modifications are a lot of fun to experiment with, but ultimately make me lose focus of the original game. I have seen many people over-do the PC mods and they end up with an ugly, inconsistent mess.
There are certainly some excellent mods out there though, Aali's OpenGL driver for instance, improving the original game without changing things for the sake of it. When more of the currently on-going mods are completed, it will be worth playing through the game with them applied, but for now it's still a WIP.

I've found playing the Playstation version in the pSX emulator is by far the most faithful to the original experience. The graphics, music and sound are exactly as they used to be on my TV back in 1998, perfection. :)
 
It seems you are looking to enhance your FFVII and VIII experience, but do not want to replace it.  While was hotdog says (pSX emulator is true to the original experience) is true, if you're looking for enhanced versions of these games that do not overstep their bounds, then a properly configured ePSXe is the way to go.  Sadly, if you are looking for improved backgrounds, textures, and sound files - you will only find these for the PC version.  The modifcations that can and have been done for the PSX version are limited in the sense that (most) files and folders on the PSX discs cannot exceed the original file size.  This effectively prohibits enhanced music, textures, and the like.  However, you can play mods for the PSX version that alter the gameplay, enemies, spells, weapons, and virtually all of the game's character and enemy oriented content.  If you're using Pete's OpenGL2 plugin and you have a modern system, you have no doubt noticed that the enemy and character models and spells look much improved, but this is the limit of the graphical improvement available on the PSX version.  If you decide to embark on a serious endeavor, then you will find many tools available here on qhimm that will enable you to tailor the game to suit your preferences.  If modding the game yourself does not interest you, and graphical and audio upgrades are your primary concern, then you must purchase the PC version. 

**Also, if you are playing using the original discs, you should make digital backup copies as those discs are bound to cease functioning eventually, and you cannot apply mods to your physical discs.
 
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Your nostalgia is blinding you good sir
Click to expand...
Maybe so, but to drive my point home, how could you play through FF7 when it looks like this:
 
When one had imported the models and worked hard on it, maybe s/he'd like to enjoy it...
 
Maybe so, but to drive my point home, how could you play through FF7 when it looks like this:
Click to expand...
i surely can and i bet more people could too...
 
come on... final fantasy 7 is like 14 years old or whatever.. at the time, we were stuck with those graphics.. now we have alternatives... its the same game but it simply looks... better.

besides the mods are optional... no1 forces any1 to use them.. and there are several mods which fix things and make the game way more enjoyable without messing with graphics or sounds..
 
A familiar theme with some is the reluctance to simply move on and let nostalgia go.  I have had the most criticism because some people think ff7 script is gospel despite the fact it contains tons of errors. 

As others have pointed out, you are not forced to use the mods.  You can pick and choose which to use.  There is no way in hell you are going to convince the majority that

my menu project is worse than the psx
graphical up-scaling is bad
PSX game is superior to PC

Because all of those are wrong and are not in question.  Some mods are poorly thought out I agree but I simply ignore them.  For the most part, the work here has done wonders.

The psx was not "perfection"  it used low quality graphics, FMV.  It had a script that was not translated properly from japanese, it used dithering on graphics and did not anti-alias 3d models like the PC.  The menu items were all over the place thanks to a botched japanse to english conversion. The PSX version is inferior on nearly all levels.

Your example video there is unfair.  I would need to be hit with a sledge hammer before I played the game like that, with that noise and that awful AC update (it is my fondest hope that all copies of Advent Children are jettisoned into space or even better burned, to stop any poor bugger alien suffering with it)
 
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You are correct about the script, although as I'm sure you know it is possible to remedy this via modifications on either platform.

Graphical up-scaling isn't so great when all the 2D elements are at such a low resolution, it makes the models look incredibly out of place. When the talented members of this forum re-render more field and battle backgrounds, everything will be hunky dory. Maybe I'm just being fussy, but I cannot understand how you think those field model replacements look good moving around on those pixelated backdrops.

You forget to mention audio, which is one area the PSX version excels at. I've only ever been partially successful in my attempts to make the PC version's sfx and music sound as good as it's console counterpart. This is one of the major drawbacks of the PC version for me, but hey, maybe I'm just doing it wrong?

The video I posted was merely to show what can happen if the available mods are over-used, wasn't making a comparison or anything here.

As for Advent Children itself, I wholeheartedly agree with you there, old chap!
 
Using PSF or MP3 of OST totally remedies the music issue.  The sound, perhaps that needs an update.
 
I actually have several copies of the original PSX discs, the set I original purchased, a set I had borrowed from a friend prior to that, and the third set I somehow inherited from someone else. This is somewhat necessary as there are a few casualties. I actually ripped them to my SSD already in what are perhaps vain hopes that everything can load more quickly.

What I most appreciate about ePSXe with Pete's OpenGL2 plug-in is that it handles scaling to my 24" monitor (at 1920x1200) surprisingly well. There are artifacts and there's an obvious amount of smudging but none of the feeling is lost from the game and it remains better than it looked on televisions running from the console. A friend of mine (former owner of one of my sets of discs) actually purchased the imported, orchestrated, OST at some ludicrous price back when it was released, but I can't fault him as it sounds amazing. I would not be averse to somehow replacing the synthesized midi tunes with the orchestrated versions.

It's not my intention to change the game, just as many of those involved with originally creating FFVII have suggested, they're reluctant to attempt to remake the game on the basis of how dangerous changes can be. Perhaps a direct 1:1 port to an improved game engine with superior graphics and sound would be too little? Perhaps adapting graphics on that scale from pre-rendered, static, backgrounds to fully rendered would be too labor intensive? Perhaps the artistic touches and feel are complicated to adapt? What if they lose the feel of it? Then perhaps they consider a re-imagining is in order, with the same essential story but a changed telling to better suit modern technology and sensibilities? All of these ideas are complex, bothersome, and potentially hazardous. I would love to a new adaptation but I concede it will require more wisdom and foresight than I possess to make that work.

If I have a point, it's perhaps that mods which modify the game too heavily MAY reinvigorate it, but could just as easily lead us too far astray from what was obviously a satisfying game by itself. I think I've noticed some mods by some lovely chaps that might replace the music and utilise painstakingly upscaled pre-rendered backgrounds, are these relatively easy to install and use? I'm unclear on what graphical improvement mechanics the custom driver from aali is capable of implementing, also. Does it compare favourably with Petes?

Finally, I'm more than a little wary of tracking down and purchasing a secondhand copy of the PC version. Not simply because I'd likely have to do it online and might receive a bum set, but because none of that money will in any way benefit SquareEnix. I would much rather support the developer than some secondhand reseller who is selling it at a high premium. If it was properly licensed and retailed that would be another story altogether, I'd buy three copies just to remind Square it is a fantastic product and one they should keep more in their thoughts.

Edit: Also, don't most EULA stipulate that the license from purchasing a PC game is non-transferable, suggesting that only the original purchase is recognised as legitimate in the eyes of the publisher? This makes sense, they're rather sell a new license to a new customer than have the original customer reselling their discs, thus making secondhand copies tantamount to piracy. They are not legally licensed to resell that game. I would think that, given the absence of a legitimate, licensed, reseller, it would be preferable to favor piracy which does not profit the pirate to that wherein the pirate is seeking a profit through their misdeeds? In any case, I noticed that someone suggested in another thread that the game is in the Steam registry, were they to see fit to release it that would be fantastic. Why can't more publishers continue to recognise that PC gamers exist and want to buy their products?
 
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Maybe so, but to drive my point home, how could you play through FF7 when it looks like this:
Click to expand...
How? Without damming eyecancer, that's how
No nostalgia can make me "like" the dated graphics
Nostalgia is reserved for gameplay
Saying the outdated ff7 graphics are better than what you linked is like saying the goddamn 8-bit tunes are superior to the orchestra versions of the songs in final fantasy
In one word: nonsense
 
Kuugen, you're not coming across as remotely objective.

Nostalgia can make one like dated graphics, this doesn't necessarily apply to everyone, but it is the case for many people even if that doesn't include yourself. It's important for everyone to realise we'll have our own opinions, but if anyone is going to start arguments that their opinion is right and the opinions of others are wrong, especially for a topic that has entirely to do with aesthetic preferences, they're only demonstrating their own small-mindedness. That won't get us anywhere.

The game was designed as a whole and everything was implemented in a fashion intended to complement everything else. Obviously Square possessed the capacity to utilise battle models outside of battles (much like they did subsequently in FF VIII) but it was earlier in development determined that they would use the simpler models. I suspect this had to do with having more characters (NPCs) on the screen at the same time and keeping the moving polygon count lower, but it's going to look rather bad, I opine, if you're using a complex battle model and surrounded by NPCs using the simpler variants. Perhaps if and when a modding project achieves complete and uniform replacement of all character models then it will see more acceptable, but at the same time in an environment wherein one has become attached to and formed fond memories of the simpler models, it might seem jarring or wrong.

Think of taking classic and highly regarded films such as the original Star Wars trilogy, and say someone decided that since they now have better special effects technology they could go in and just start replacing the original actors, props, backgrounds, with new enhanced versions. I'm sure no-one could possibly hate that, right? People won't miss the costumes  and characters that we grew up watching with such fondness, we'll immediately move to embrace these new variants despite the fact they clash so obviously with everything else in the film!

I'm not trying to shift our topic, only demonstrate using an removed example.
 
Yeah look at the latest installments of TMNT and Power Rangers.  They are basically garbage.  Kinda like FFVII versus AC.  But anyway, Vettvilling, did you figure out what your intentions are in light of this thread?
 
I would say that my present state of mind favours completion of this present playthrough as is with ePSXe, but if and when I choose to replay it or commence with FF VIII I may reevaluate. The more I've thought about it the more I refuse to purchase a used copy of FF VII or VIII for the PC. I'm either stuck waiting for SquareEnix to find another official release outlet, through which I'll happily pay the $10 or whatnot, if it's the same price as their PS Network version, or I'll end up downloading it somewhere. I've observed this forum has a rather stubborn mentality which suggests that not using the original discs is piracy, but as I noted earlier Square is absolutely no happier if you buy them secondhand. There's also the consolation that I have paid them full price for the PSX versions of their games, when they were released all those years ago.... Anyhow, I'm hardly eager to have to deal with any of that, maybe I'll let Steam decide it for me, or see if I don't notice some of the more intriguing mods mature to a point that I must experience them. I appreciate the helpful comments.
 
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