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DLPB_
Guest
BIGGERER IS BETTERER (In fanboy and Senix world). That music and logo are the perfect summing up of Final Fantasy these days.
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BIGGERER IS BETTERER (In fanboy and Senix world). That music and logo are the perfect summing up of Final Fantasy these days.
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ivi0nk3y
Guest
Couldn't agree more with your post DLPB but the same corporate mentality has effected more than just video games. It's ridiculous but if I speak to a teenager these days, I feel sorry for the fact that they don't seem to know anything that made growing up great for my generation. Classic games can be found as Java applet remakes which are played to pass the time, offering a slight peak into greatness. Movies are mostly recycled, uncreative drivel which feed off the originals that made them great like some parasite and mostly anything new is just crap. Music either has some whiny punk ass singing in an attempt to sound like they have the X-factor, or it has a hard B-line, or both to reel in the cash. Most TV shows show us nothing with feeling or thought but just soulless celebrities puppeted around a screen, in the lame attempt to hook onto viewers.
Granted there are a few good things out there but it's almost like its bait, to keep us interested in a waning enterprise.
It seems, for whatever reason, these guys are trying to make millions and are playing every cheap hand (feeding off their previous successes), to do so.
Granted there are a few good things out there but it's almost like its bait, to keep us interested in a waning enterprise.
It seems, for whatever reason, these guys are trying to make millions and are playing every cheap hand (feeding off their previous successes), to do so.
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DLPB_
Guest
That is true, it is a social breakdown. But don't worry, change always happens.
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Bosola
Guest
No it isn't. Stop being daft.
Culture in the 1970s, 80s and 90s was no less derivative or unengaging than today's. Comparing today's offerings with what we remember of yesteryear means we apply a selection bias, because we do not remember mediocre titles and artists from the past. Every age has always pointed to a lost, golden past, and today's nostalgists are no less wrong now than their predecessors were before.
Culture in the 1970s, 80s and 90s was no less derivative or unengaging than today's. Comparing today's offerings with what we remember of yesteryear means we apply a selection bias, because we do not remember mediocre titles and artists from the past. Every age has always pointed to a lost, golden past, and today's nostalgists are no less wrong now than their predecessors were before.
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DLPB_
Guest
I'd say today's society is dumbed down and TV spoon fed. I definitely think social issues are the reason for it. People have less respect, certainly in my country, and TV, education has been dumbed down to sucha degree that it is no wonder the masses are mindless.
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Lion
Guest
I haven't touched FFXIII at all. Heard terrible reviews, apparently it's supposed to have even less exploration than FFX, was too scared to touch it.
Oh man, definitely not. If you entered a dungeon in FF7 there was always multiple paths to walk. Of course they all led to the same place, but at least it was sort of fun navigating the map and doing parkour. Climbing up to Shinra HQ for example i remember jumping on all these random metal things. Or perhaps in FF7 where there are multiple doors, and multiple paths that make a dungeon explorable. A dungeon in FFX, we'll say the cavern of stolen fayth, was so dumbed down. It's a straight line with occasional dead ends branching off of it. Calm lands? Besaid? Come one there was nothing to explore there. Calm lands, bam we plopped down a huge circle of grass with 2 exits. Calm lands 2 was a bit better I guess. Besaid was literally a straight line with houses on the side and the back exit was the temple. Compare that to FF8's balamb garden or balamb itself.
I thoroughly enjoyed Nobuos contributions in FFX and will be one of the first to tell you that it is one of his better works. Granted early FF's had rather poor sound quality but whatever. My actual point was that it was signifying FF going downhill. Nobuo leaving didnt affect FFX as badly as it did FFXII/FFX-2/etc/etc.
Again I have not played FFXIII. If you talked to me about FFXII i would be a bit better off. I enjoyed FFX's story. Just that it's guilty of starting a trend because it worked successfully.
Well I disliked Tidus as a main character. And we're not talking about his terrible voice acting either. And really the main character is probably the one who makes or breaks a game/story. Nobody gives a fuck about your Vincent Valentines or Quistis Trepes. I thought Tidus was a bit of a tool. I hated how he looked (bro, check out my bling, bro, i might as well not be wearing a shirt, and that haircut..... ughhh). And his fake confidence annoyed me all the time.
Well I finished the game. Did not finish all the side quests. Didn't kill the superbosses. FFX probably had a better late-late game than earlier FF's just because they recoloured a lot of summons and changed some numbers around. It does beat earlier FF's in this regard. Of course there are sidequests. Every Final Fantasy has sidequests and minigames. There just wasn't as much as earlier versions. Just take the Jecht spheres for example. Compare it to FF8's Laguna sequence. Instead of playing as Laguna and team, you get to watch Jecht walk back and forth and text appears on the screen.
Story I enjoyed. Other games made for 5 year olds? IDK. FF7 has one of the most "you find out something new everytime you play it" type stories i've ever seen. On the other hand i sort of agree. I hated how every game I played, I had to save the world. How boring. How about killing sephiroth for pure revenge's sake. Saving the world, just doesn't feel awesome like you would think saving the world does. Story flaws exist in all FF's so I won't really say much about that. (Like wtf happened to Shinra....)
Lol, FFX was successful. So they tried to copy its formula. It somewhat succeeded in later games. They assumed it was because of all the new stuff. It worked in FFX but FFX did start the trend.
G
Giullio
Guest
Oh and one more thing, I hadn't read all of this topic but I think nobody mentioned what they did with the summons, In X the summoning system was cool, I liked it, it was different but I liked it, but in XII what the fuck just happened here? they are useless decorative things only, and c'mon a lot of those summons I didn't even known from previous games... perhaps some.
In XIII I saw some reviews and stuff, It seems that Shiva is a bike and Ifrit is a car, Odin a horse... Is that right? Where are those mighty beasts that came with overwhelming power and stroke all the screen with fantastic cutscenes?
In XIII I saw some reviews and stuff, It seems that Shiva is a bike and Ifrit is a car, Odin a horse... Is that right? Where are those mighty beasts that came with overwhelming power and stroke all the screen with fantastic cutscenes?
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DLPB_
Guest
I did do a huge XII review once, and believe me the pathetic summons were mentioned. An example of where X got it right (gave you control of them) and XII went backwards (Took control away from you and made them near useless).
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ultima espio
Guest
Ifrit isn't in 13, that's Brynhildr.
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xLostWingx
Guest
Something should be said about the fact that so many can gather around the idea that FFX was a major component of Square's initial decline. Why isn't everyone saying that VIII or IX was the turning point? Well, because they were still good and they were made before the 'wrongness'. FFX however, did have many faults that weren't in previous FF installments AND it was the last FF to be made before the wrongness began. FFX itself had many good qualities, no one has tried to deny that here. But it is not as if Square lept off a cliff, instead they drove down a fairly steep hill. So no...FFX was not Square's greatest failure, nor was it a culmination of the everything that was wrong with Squaresoft, but FFX was the seed from which the decline grew from. That seed attracted a new and different clientele, and with them came lots of money. So obviously Square chose to expand on FFX's "innovations" - Which is What Went Wrong.
Most of the people that hate VII, hate it because it was a major change in the way Square made their FFs. Those people have every right to point the finger at VII. Of course, that doesn't make it a bad game, but you can't deny that VII was a major turning point in Square's history. FFX was a good game, but it changed FF in a very real way. Interstingly, this adds support to your Technology explanation as VII was first FF on PSX and X was the first on PS2, just as XIII (another major turning point, that most of us say is for the worse) was the first FF on PS3. C'mon, it might hurt to say it, but FFX definetely had a lot to do with our current opinion of Square.
Most of the people that hate VII, hate it because it was a major change in the way Square made their FFs. Those people have every right to point the finger at VII. Of course, that doesn't make it a bad game, but you can't deny that VII was a major turning point in Square's history. FFX was a good game, but it changed FF in a very real way. Interstingly, this adds support to your Technology explanation as VII was first FF on PSX and X was the first on PS2, just as XIII (another major turning point, that most of us say is for the worse) was the first FF on PS3. C'mon, it might hurt to say it, but FFX definetely had a lot to do with our current opinion of Square.
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DLPB_
Guest
People who think VII was a decline, are retarded. It kept to the same formula mostly and enhanced it. It did not do away with NPC, or integral components of what makes a jRPG a jRPG and that is the difference. Nor does X. XII did to an extent because the character driven story disappeared and so did intelligent turn based battle. XIII was the first that I would no longer class as a jrpg.
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Ishtaria
Guest
Exactly right. Look at all of the systems and content from the games previous to VII and it doesn't take long before you see that VII has got all of these but nicely wrapped up in a graphics engine that was innovative for the time and made the game even more compelling to play. VII is a classic jRPG in every way. I think the thing that puts people off it more than anything is its lack of medieval fantasy setting in favour of a steampunk sort of style.
It's hard to find the turning point but I think there's actually been a steady decline since VII in one way or another. Not saying VII was the last great FF and the turning point but none of its successors have been as good due to various reasons. I didn't like the GF system in VIII, I appreciated the innovation but it just didn't gel with me and I also disliked the environment. IX while more "traditional", felt in some way empty. I don't know if by being "traditional" it ended up with less substance, I can't really explain it.
Then we get to X where things started to pick up. Loved the plot and the fantastic battle system, not so keen on the weapon system and the "world map" but there was more than enough stuff in the actual world to offset that. It was an overall good package but in many respects you could see worrying hints of the direction the series was going to take. X-2 deserves no mention. XII I thought was a good game in its own right despite a terribly weak plot. If it had been given a name other than FF (with the common FF aspects also replaced of course) then I think the FF purists might have rated it higher than what they do. By now though you can see that Squenix is really starting to mess and has moved completely away from what the old school of us perceive as a Final Fantasy game.
XIII I haven't played, I don't actually own a current gen console, but I don't even have a desire to play it. I have a true feeling that I'll never play a proper Final Fantasy game ever again, mainly because Squenix' idea of an FF game is completely different to our idea of one.
It's hard to find the turning point but I think there's actually been a steady decline since VII in one way or another. Not saying VII was the last great FF and the turning point but none of its successors have been as good due to various reasons. I didn't like the GF system in VIII, I appreciated the innovation but it just didn't gel with me and I also disliked the environment. IX while more "traditional", felt in some way empty. I don't know if by being "traditional" it ended up with less substance, I can't really explain it.
Then we get to X where things started to pick up. Loved the plot and the fantastic battle system, not so keen on the weapon system and the "world map" but there was more than enough stuff in the actual world to offset that. It was an overall good package but in many respects you could see worrying hints of the direction the series was going to take. X-2 deserves no mention. XII I thought was a good game in its own right despite a terribly weak plot. If it had been given a name other than FF (with the common FF aspects also replaced of course) then I think the FF purists might have rated it higher than what they do. By now though you can see that Squenix is really starting to mess and has moved completely away from what the old school of us perceive as a Final Fantasy game.
XIII I haven't played, I don't actually own a current gen console, but I don't even have a desire to play it. I have a true feeling that I'll never play a proper Final Fantasy game ever again, mainly because Squenix' idea of an FF game is completely different to our idea of one.
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syntax error
Guest
FF VII has a more cyberpunk like setting,while FF VI introduced steampunk machines like trains,Alexander.
With VI VII and VIII perhaps they tried a different way,perhaps they wanted to look professional and more for older gamers.
The management wanted to have full 3D on the PSX if not they could have made something looking like Chrono Trigger or Treasure of the Rudras.
With VI VII and VIII perhaps they tried a different way,perhaps they wanted to look professional and more for older gamers.
The management wanted to have full 3D on the PSX if not they could have made something looking like Chrono Trigger or Treasure of the Rudras.
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Ishtaria
Guest
D'oh cyberpunk was what I was looking for with VII, not steampunk :
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hian
Guest
Some points worth adding though:
You can blame the old fans for gobbling up sh*t, but I think a larger problem is the new generation of mainstream gamers.
The fact of the matter is that when "games were for nerds", the crowd gaming was smaller I.E potential customers less, and with that comes a larger responsibility on the part of game-developers.
You can't opt for a hit and miss strategy in a niche bussiness - Especially if you consider the cost of production versus the risk of failure.
Nowadays however, everyone and their mums dogs play video-games, and so critical demand is less, and potential customers have risen.
Like with how it's done in all other parts of the media industry, it's more economically feasible to observe the trend of the average and design your product with that in mind.
Since the amount of gamers have risen in total, and the quality-demanding, obsessive gamer type has arguably become a much less important force in the market, games will be made accordingly - Final Fantasy is no different.
The fact of the matter is that you can still go around the internet, and find tons of people that hugely enjoyed the newer installments in the series - pressumably because their standards are lower(or different) compared to the older generation.
A company, thinking in terms of profit, is sure to notice this. Why spend ages, and tons of cash creating a product appealing mainly to a smaller section of the possible consumer base, when you can make a product with less effort that will appeal to the masses anyways?
You see this trend clearly in the music industry - Why should the gaming industry be any different?
Sakaguchi leaving and money issues etc, has surely had some impact, but gaming becoming mainstream, and everything that entails, is probably the biggest issue in my opinion.
Another factor, in terms of Japanese games like FF and MGS, is the Japanese culture and their view of story telling in visual formats.
The fact of the matter is that, despite their tradition of developing great games carried mainly by gameplay, Japanese gaming history has tons of examples of a deep gap between gameplay driven media and story driven media(not saying it's always like this though).
In many ways, the new generations of games focusing on cut-scenes and only partially interactive scenes seem deeply rooted in the "visual game novel" tradition. Many Japanese "gamers" seem simply to be more interested in the story aspect, than the gameplay aspect. In light of that, it's natural to put more focus on this from a developer point of view, if your main objective is to make money, or please the masses.
In that way, the direction of MGS and later FFs are only logical - It's imaginable that a lot of Japanese developers have always wanted to present their stories in this way(more akin to interactive movies, than games), but have been unable to due to technological limitations. If you think FF13 was difficult to endure, imagine if FF7 was presented the same way, but in that era of graphics, and sound.
(This trend is even becoming true for the west to a certain degree as well - Consider the casual gamers approach to gaming)
IMO both these explanations seem more likely in terms of FFs decline, as these explanations branch into the issue with a lot of other titles from Japan(and the rest of the world) that have taken a turn for the worse over the years since the second half of the PS2 era.
Also -
Although I agree in your general assessment of the series, I can't find myself to agree completely with your view on FF12-13.
FF12, while a completely different from earlier titles, was a good game in it's own right(I agree that the story was weak though - Lack of character development, and long stretches between ultimately short and unfullfilling story segments left a lot to be desired).
I imagine that if they had dubbed it "Final Fantasy Tactics : somethingsomething" or "Vagrant Story : somethingsomthing" instead, the difference would make more sense, and less people would have complained about it.
If it wasn't passed off as a part of the main FF series, I'd easily have rated it an 8 or something to that effect. Giving it 7 or less just doesn't make sense when you consider the vast amount of RPGs that are 10 times worse, yet rated in the 5-7 range.
Same can be said for FF13 - Where it fails as an FF game, it shines as an FF interactive movie. Unlike FF12, I have gripes with the gameplay(or rather lack thereof), but not so much the story - I didn't like it personally, but to write it off as bad story-telling IMO is disingenuous to the extreme.
If you look at the FF series over the times, the quality of writing has undeniably become better with the years, regardless of whether we like the character or plots or not. Consider the more sums of money they have to hire professionals to write, edit, and oversee the story, the better it will be in technical terms.
There is a big difference with the totality of a plot, and the way which the plot is presented with dialogue(and or dubs).
If we imagine FF7 made today, for the first time, but fleshed out by the people who do the work on the newer FFs, there would be a large different, and most likely for the better, in its expression. Anyone who says otherwise is either blinded by nostalgia, or has no idea what good writing is to begin with.
There is a big difference been something being technically well written, and something being creatively well written.
A creative product I.E much of what is related to the plot etc will always be something difficult to judge except by the most subjective of standards because everyone have different preferences for how stories should unfold or how characters "should" react in a given circumstance. Many people for instance, jump on any story ending abruptly with the victory of the villain, and call it bad writing, - which makes no sense whatsoever.
Similarly, one-dimensional characters are instantly branded as bad, yet I've met many people through the course of my life just as stereotypical and flat as your average RPG character - So go figure.
Technical aspects of writing however are much clearer.
The newer FFs(FF12 being the one exception I guess, but it's obvious that they weren't trying to create a story driven game to begin with here) are all, as far as I'm concerned, technically better written than the earlier ones.
I still consider the earlier plots better than the new ones - But they aren't expressed as well. Some of the dialogue in the earlier games, if you read it out aloud, are formulated like sentences you'd expect to find in a book for 4 year olds, or basic grammar books for students of a new language - "I am so drunk now, my head hurts." and stuff to that effect.
That's not good writing.
Personally, I found the cast of FF13 to do the job of resembling actual people much better than say FF8, which arguably had some of the worst character expression in the entire series(not counting anything before 4, and 12) - The only character with the depth to be called believable in FF8, was Laguna.
But again, discussion on those aspects of a game is hardly productive - With the right angle you could probably bombard the sh*t out of any game you'd like, given the time and place.
For the most part, your post was a great read.
You can blame the old fans for gobbling up sh*t, but I think a larger problem is the new generation of mainstream gamers.
The fact of the matter is that when "games were for nerds", the crowd gaming was smaller I.E potential customers less, and with that comes a larger responsibility on the part of game-developers.
You can't opt for a hit and miss strategy in a niche bussiness - Especially if you consider the cost of production versus the risk of failure.
Nowadays however, everyone and their mums dogs play video-games, and so critical demand is less, and potential customers have risen.
Like with how it's done in all other parts of the media industry, it's more economically feasible to observe the trend of the average and design your product with that in mind.
Since the amount of gamers have risen in total, and the quality-demanding, obsessive gamer type has arguably become a much less important force in the market, games will be made accordingly - Final Fantasy is no different.
The fact of the matter is that you can still go around the internet, and find tons of people that hugely enjoyed the newer installments in the series - pressumably because their standards are lower(or different) compared to the older generation.
A company, thinking in terms of profit, is sure to notice this. Why spend ages, and tons of cash creating a product appealing mainly to a smaller section of the possible consumer base, when you can make a product with less effort that will appeal to the masses anyways?
You see this trend clearly in the music industry - Why should the gaming industry be any different?
Sakaguchi leaving and money issues etc, has surely had some impact, but gaming becoming mainstream, and everything that entails, is probably the biggest issue in my opinion.
Another factor, in terms of Japanese games like FF and MGS, is the Japanese culture and their view of story telling in visual formats.
The fact of the matter is that, despite their tradition of developing great games carried mainly by gameplay, Japanese gaming history has tons of examples of a deep gap between gameplay driven media and story driven media(not saying it's always like this though).
In many ways, the new generations of games focusing on cut-scenes and only partially interactive scenes seem deeply rooted in the "visual game novel" tradition. Many Japanese "gamers" seem simply to be more interested in the story aspect, than the gameplay aspect. In light of that, it's natural to put more focus on this from a developer point of view, if your main objective is to make money, or please the masses.
In that way, the direction of MGS and later FFs are only logical - It's imaginable that a lot of Japanese developers have always wanted to present their stories in this way(more akin to interactive movies, than games), but have been unable to due to technological limitations. If you think FF13 was difficult to endure, imagine if FF7 was presented the same way, but in that era of graphics, and sound.
(This trend is even becoming true for the west to a certain degree as well - Consider the casual gamers approach to gaming)
IMO both these explanations seem more likely in terms of FFs decline, as these explanations branch into the issue with a lot of other titles from Japan(and the rest of the world) that have taken a turn for the worse over the years since the second half of the PS2 era.
Also -
Although I agree in your general assessment of the series, I can't find myself to agree completely with your view on FF12-13.
FF12, while a completely different from earlier titles, was a good game in it's own right(I agree that the story was weak though - Lack of character development, and long stretches between ultimately short and unfullfilling story segments left a lot to be desired).
I imagine that if they had dubbed it "Final Fantasy Tactics : somethingsomething" or "Vagrant Story : somethingsomthing" instead, the difference would make more sense, and less people would have complained about it.
If it wasn't passed off as a part of the main FF series, I'd easily have rated it an 8 or something to that effect. Giving it 7 or less just doesn't make sense when you consider the vast amount of RPGs that are 10 times worse, yet rated in the 5-7 range.
Same can be said for FF13 - Where it fails as an FF game, it shines as an FF interactive movie. Unlike FF12, I have gripes with the gameplay(or rather lack thereof), but not so much the story - I didn't like it personally, but to write it off as bad story-telling IMO is disingenuous to the extreme.
If you look at the FF series over the times, the quality of writing has undeniably become better with the years, regardless of whether we like the character or plots or not. Consider the more sums of money they have to hire professionals to write, edit, and oversee the story, the better it will be in technical terms.
There is a big difference with the totality of a plot, and the way which the plot is presented with dialogue(and or dubs).
If we imagine FF7 made today, for the first time, but fleshed out by the people who do the work on the newer FFs, there would be a large different, and most likely for the better, in its expression. Anyone who says otherwise is either blinded by nostalgia, or has no idea what good writing is to begin with.
There is a big difference been something being technically well written, and something being creatively well written.
A creative product I.E much of what is related to the plot etc will always be something difficult to judge except by the most subjective of standards because everyone have different preferences for how stories should unfold or how characters "should" react in a given circumstance. Many people for instance, jump on any story ending abruptly with the victory of the villain, and call it bad writing, - which makes no sense whatsoever.
Similarly, one-dimensional characters are instantly branded as bad, yet I've met many people through the course of my life just as stereotypical and flat as your average RPG character - So go figure.
Technical aspects of writing however are much clearer.
The newer FFs(FF12 being the one exception I guess, but it's obvious that they weren't trying to create a story driven game to begin with here) are all, as far as I'm concerned, technically better written than the earlier ones.
I still consider the earlier plots better than the new ones - But they aren't expressed as well. Some of the dialogue in the earlier games, if you read it out aloud, are formulated like sentences you'd expect to find in a book for 4 year olds, or basic grammar books for students of a new language - "I am so drunk now, my head hurts." and stuff to that effect.
That's not good writing.
Personally, I found the cast of FF13 to do the job of resembling actual people much better than say FF8, which arguably had some of the worst character expression in the entire series(not counting anything before 4, and 12) - The only character with the depth to be called believable in FF8, was Laguna.
But again, discussion on those aspects of a game is hardly productive - With the right angle you could probably bombard the sh*t out of any game you'd like, given the time and place.
For the most part, your post was a great read.
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DLPB_
Guest
Yeah you are right... with time you can find more reasons for why things are going the way they are, and pandering to mainstream profits is definitely one of the biggest. Still, it doesn't help that fanbase accept it as well, they have no incentive to change.
Sakaguchi's Last Odyssey was decent and I believe, Last Story is supposed to be great. At least that dude makes an effort.
Sakaguchi's Last Odyssey was decent and I believe, Last Story is supposed to be great. At least that dude makes an effort.
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DLPB_
Guest
This forum really is a breath of fresh air to other places you know. The differences couldn't be more obvious. It is great being surrounded by people who know how to debate a wider point, compared to a bunch of ridiculous fanboys who only know how to post macros. Kudos to the community of Qhimm. Seriously. 8)
I also wish people would stop deliberately using the word "linear" to suggest that X was in any way like XIII. It wasn't. X was a game with far more to do, far more places to go and did not do away with integral components of jrpg. The most desperate thing I ever did see was people making excuses for XIII when it first came out by trying to delude people into believing it was "just like X". They still do it now.
XIII had some things that were similar to X, same way a sink has similar features to a bathtub but they are not the same. One has more depth for a start
I also wish people would stop deliberately using the word "linear" to suggest that X was in any way like XIII. It wasn't. X was a game with far more to do, far more places to go and did not do away with integral components of jrpg. The most desperate thing I ever did see was people making excuses for XIII when it first came out by trying to delude people into believing it was "just like X". They still do it now.
XIII had some things that were similar to X, same way a sink has similar features to a bathtub but they are not the same. One has more depth for a start
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Prince Lex
Guest
While I agree that X had far more to do, the way the narrative is carried is very similar. To boil it down to it's simplest terms, you can't do anything but progress the story until you hit the Calm Lands/ Zanarkand. Then it opens up a bit. In this respect, it's actually very very similar to XIII, where you can't do anything but progress the story until you hit the Archylte Steppe.
The only real difference in XIII is that you can't go backwards.
The only real difference in XIII is that you can't go backwards.
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DLPB_
Guest
But XIII doesn't even have any real NPC or towns like Besaid... it is just a literal gauntlet....
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Prince Lex
Guest
While that's true, it's still just as linear. The only thing that takes away slightly from that linearity is to postpone progression of the story to talk to people, and that it occasionally takes effort to actually look for treasure chests. It's all an illusion put there to detract from the linearity, and the problem with the narrative in XIII is that there is no such illusion.
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