What Went Wrong?

[Prince Lex]

Yes I knew that. Still pisses me off though!

 

[DLPB_]

yeah me too...  have to give em it for what they come up with in ff9... fuckin' Iifa roots?

 

[Livesey]

Hated those roots so much ff9 at the end felt like a world map and treno, the place was just baron and boring but hey the rest of the games great.

 

[royalmurder]

Heh, I just spent a good hour reading this whole topic...

And now I'm going to turn into everything you seem to hate, DLPB.
XIII was (is, actually, as I haven't beaten it yet) a typical (aside from no Towns, nor memorable NPCs) Final Fantasy, and was well worth the time I spent playing it. It had the usual mix of annoying characters (Vanille and Hope, ugh.) and ridiculous weapons (A fucking boomerang, really?), and it had such an interesting take on the MP aspect of the Battle System, I was honestly quite amazed. Although, it did mean I pretty much never used the Summons...

All in all, I'd rate XIII as easily within my top 5 favourite FF games. Beats the hell out of VIII, as it doesn't have the major flaw in the most common part of the game (battles, obviously) which is the sheer effort which has to be put in, not for the strategy part, as this should be strenuous, but just generally. All you had to do was use Mad Rush on VIII, and that was most random encounters done for you, other than when you wanted to Draw, which resulted in about 15, 20 minutes of "yawn~ am I done yet?"

As for the purpose of your OP, the main thing I think of when trying to find some reason as to why games have gone downhill... I'd say is the technology. Games companies are finding that they have fewer restrictions, so they play around more. Eventually, the ridiculous amount of space on a BluRay (seriously, 50 GB???) will become old-hat, and until the next-gen appears (which is unlikely to have a different format) games will begin to pick up again, as ultra-high cinematic graphics will no longer be new. So... have patience, and play the older games until then.

Finally, I can't recall who said it, but someone did say that you shouldn't stick to one franchise / developer. To this point, I proffer NaughtyDog. Never have I played a bad ND game.

 

[DLPB_]

XIII was (is, actually, as I haven't beaten it yet) a typical (aside from no Towns, nor memorable NPCs) Final Fantasy,

No it isn't.  As has been said many times, it lacks core elements of what is considered FF and jRPG.  Namely, numerous NPC, numerous minigames, sidequests, ability to go back to areas, puzzles, sidetracking from main path, full customisation and choices in battle to name a few.  To try and say that XIII is the same as any other Final Fantasy isn't just wrong, it is a bare faced lie and/or delusion.

and was well worth the time I spent playing it.

Key word there.  I.  I really am wondering when this is gonna sink in.  Whether you personally like it or not is not the issue or topic here.  The numerous and observable factual flaws are.  The fact that many people, like me, did not like this game due to said flaws, and that overall, its scores by both professional reviewers AND users is well below the norm for a Final Fantasy pre X-2.

It had the usual mix of annoying characters (Vanille and Hope, ugh.) and ridiculous weapons (A f*cking boomerang, really?), and it had such an interesting take on the MP aspect of the Battle System, I was honestly quite amazed. Although, it did mean I pretty much never used the Summons...

This is your expansive reply and defence? A 3 line rebuttal which then says you haven't even bothered to use Summons?  I mean, I know I am coming across badly in this post in terms of "being nice" but what other way can I react to this?

All in all, I'd rate XIII as easily within my top 5 favourite FF games.

Again, this has nothing to do with it.

Beats the hell out of VIII,

personal opinion, but ignoring that VIII had far more to do, far more creativity involved and a story that wasn't completely amateurish.  That's for starters.

as it doesn't have the major flaw in the most common part of the game (battles, obviously) which is the sheer effort which has to be put in, not for the strategy part, as this should be strenuous, but just generally. All you had to do was use Mad Rush on VIII, and that was most random encounters done for you, other than when you wanted to Draw, which resulted in about 15, 20 minutes of "yawn~ am I done yet?"

In VIII you could proceed the way you wanted to.  Not just push auto battle and have 2 characters played for you through AI.  VIII's system was great the problem. like with VII is that it was not implemented properly to make the game harder.  XIII's wasn't just poorly implemented, it was a dumbed down piece of sh*t.

As for the purpose of your OP, the main thing I think of when trying to find some reason as to why games have gone downhill... I'd say is the technology. Games companies are finding that they have fewer restrictions, so they play around more. Eventually, the ridiculous amount of space on a BluRay (seriously, 50 GB???) will become old-hat, and until the next-gen appears (which is unlikely to have a different format) games will begin to pick up again, as ultra-high cinematic graphics will no longer be new. So... have patience, and play the older games until then.

Well, XIII conforms to  this problem completely.  Bad pacing and graphics over substance.  Checkpoint paths.  I dunno why you are defending it?

 

[Prince Lex]

Finally, I can't recall who said it, but someone did say that you shouldn't stick to one franchise / developer. To this point, I proffer NaughtyDog. Never have I played a bad ND game.

I agree, Naughty Dog are amazing.

 

[DLPB_]

I didn't stick to 1 franchise, sadly they all gone to pot  :-D

 

[hian]

And now I'm going to turn into everything you seem to hate, DLPB.
XIII was (is, actually, as I haven't beaten it yet) a typical (aside from no Towns, nor memorable NPCs) Final Fantasy, and was well worth the time I spent playing it. It had the usual mix of annoying characters (Vanille and Hope, ugh.) and ridiculous weapons (A f*cking boomerang, really?), and it had such an interesting take on the MP aspect of the Battle System, I was honestly quite amazed. Although, it did mean I pretty much never used the Summons...

What exactly was typical about it? Your only concrete example is "mix of annoying characters", and that's not really a good example, because this really falls down to personal taste.
Removing towns, exploration, party control, mini-games, NPC's, length, and depth, makes it more different than previous FF games, than similar, hence the term "typical" is completely nonsensical in terms of describing the nature of that game.

Finally, I can't recall who said it, but someone did say that you shouldn't stick to one franchise / developer. To this point, I proffer NaughtyDog. Never have I played a bad ND game.

Hardly anyone sticks to just one company. But as I said in my previous post, the trend of loss in quality is something that happens all across the board, not just in Square-Enix.
Besides, by your logic, even NaughtyDog will go to the dogs(*lowblow-alert*) in time.

In any case, there is probably some truth in technological advances being somewhat at fault -
Like a lot of people in music production will tell you - More possibilities tend to screw with your creativity.
With limitations,  come the need for creative solutions - With possibilities come the confusion that follows lack of directives.

A lot of creative("cheap") solutions you see in old games(like the world map, where everything is tiny, and the character is huge) were the direct result of limitations, but they still worked out and ended up being central and enjoyable part of gameplay.
Now, it's possible to just use the old formulas and pimp them up with the new technology - Most people just gobble that up anyways.
The new generations of gamers don't smell the stink of degeneration that lies behind the pretty HD facelift used to cover up the same old dusty formulas - And the developers who try to do something new, are struggling by forcing out creative yet utlimately pointless changes, because innovation usually just becomes redundant when there is no limitation there to provoke it.

When we got the huge, 3D open world environments, this was a direct result of new possibilities - But where do you go from there? Bigger 3D open world environments? Do you revert back to the old "overworld" system, or just a bunch of corridors?

At the end of the day, there is a choice between going for the tried and tested, successfull formulas(or try to improve on them), or be innovative.
The fact is that a lot of companies don't do either, and end up failing at both.
They botch the working formulas, and their attempt at being innovative simply ends up with gimicky BS.

FF13 is a great example of this.
They've tried to improve upon presentation(graphics, FMV's, voice-acting etc), but they messed up everything else.
The only innovation lies in the battle-system, but it feels forced and unnecessary, rather than like something new and progressive in a good way. To illustrate this, just imagine if FF13 had been made with the FF10 battlesystem, or something very similar - Do you think anyone would notice? Do you think people would praise it less or more?
It probably wouldn't change a thing, and is why I don't consider the change to be very good in either case.
And how many people buy FF games for the battlesystem anways? When the battle system is the only redeeming quality of an RPG, you know something is wrong - This is like buy a fighting game, solely for the story.

Although old formulas should be upgraded, and improved upon over time - The old axion "There is no need to fix what ain't broken" is never more true than in most media instances.
Most new jrpgs are examples of what happens when you fail to heed this.

With the exception of Last Story, which btw, is scheduled for release in late February, for those who're interested.

 

[DLPB_]

I don't think it is purely a case of them trying to innovate... with XIII they were simply more interested in graphical power and that interfered with the gameplay.  Somewhere along the line they realised 3 things.

1.  Graphics sell
2. Fanbase keeps biting.
3.  Corridors and simple dynamics mean less brains need to be used in development.

They have gotten lazy, complacent, money obsessed and there are enough people buying the games so why shouldn't they?  They do not have proper competition in this market either since the merger.

It is easy to create a game with the typical checkpoint gameplay...  it is not easy to add in minigames, quests, battle options and make a decent solid story.  XIII's story is retarded and amateurish, and from what I have heard XIII-2, as expected, is even worse.  From retarded to intelligence insulting (assuming you have one to insult).

If you had asked me 3 years ago to predict how things would turn out, not even I would have dreamed there could be a XIII-3.  I have never seen something so blatant.  It makes me angry, but more angry that the series I loved is dead and reduced to this pitiful little shell.

They are now reducing themselves to simply using the exact same engine and material, cobbling up some graphical cutscenes and selling it as a game.  I can't understand why ANYONE is still falling for this.  I don't understand people who can see what I can see and yet go off down to the shop to feed these sly thieves.

 

[Iecerint]

I think X-2, XII, and XIII all have PART of the puzzle.  I think X-2 has maybe the best implementation of Job mechanics outside of Final Fantasy Tactics, if you can just ignore the story.  Final Fantasy XII gives the open-world element that felt missing from Final Fantasy X (though FFX does a good job of distracting you from this shortcoming), even though the story is saliently unfinished after you get Berias.  Final Fantasy XIII has a fun battle system once you play through the 15 hour tutorial.

I think you should look into the Shin Megami Tensei PS2 games if you haven't already (e.g. SMT 3: Nocturne, DDS, Devil Summoner, Persona FES/4).

 

[DLPB_]

Everything's gone wrong.

 

[LeonhartGR]

Everything's gone wrong.