Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?

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Because, as I have stated a few times, Zax would not know Shinra "well enough". Also, Zax would have had to tell Cloud the time he met Shinra and how they know each other well. Cloud is not a mind reader - he basis part of his life on the stories he was told by Zax.  It is a big stretch of the imagination to suppose Zax knew Shinra well enough to be on a first name basis with him. Shinra himself even heavily implies in the same dialogue  that he doesn't know any Soldier's name apart from Sephiroth's.  So you've got a brick wall by Shinra's own words.

Again - it's poor writing.  That's all it is.  Even if they retcon it and show Zax toasting drinks in Shinra's office it will be poor writing.  It is a conversation designed only to bring Sephiroth up. There isn't any other reason. There isn't any other explanation.  If you give me enough time to conjure up reasons, I can make believe that the Midgardsormr met Shinra and played chess with him once upon a time over a luxurious meal in his office.  There comes a point where you just have to accept that the writers either didn't notice this was an issue, or did and didn't care.
 
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Couldn't all this be explained by Shinra touring Hojo's lab while Cloud and Zack were being experimented on, before they escaped. Which would be why the president almost recognizes him, and why he (with parts of Zack's non zombie state memories) recognizes him back.
 
That is still conjuring up plot that doesn't exist in the game to explain something that is purely lacking writing. See my post above.  We can create any scenario we want - if we choose to.  Plus I don't think your explanation is really all that believable given the dialogue that already exists.
 
It doesn't seem that farfetched to me that President Shinra would have seen the experiment seeing as Hojo was just appointed by him, or at least getting a briefing with a file with both of their pictures, we do see them nonchalantly discussing "breeding" Aerith later. Not even to mention the place that the experiment took place was the SHINRA mansion.

For all we know Shinra just saw the pic of Tifa, Sephiroth and Zack after they replaced the town, and see's Zack's uniform/buster sword and mistakes him for him for a second. And then thinking back on the picture, regardless of if you are the extra soldier or not, he wouldn't remember your name too "unless you had become Sephiroth"
 
OK. I'm done.  I'm not going to repeat myself a fifth time :P

If we go down the road of inventing writing that isn't there, then literally anything can happen and anything can make sense.
 
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Because, as I have stated a few times, Zax would not know Shinra "well enough". Also, Zax would have had to tell Cloud the time he met Shinra and how they know each other well. Cloud is not a mind reader - he basis part of his life on the stories he was told by Zax.  It is a big stretch of the imagination to suppose Zax knew Shinra well enough to be on a first name basis with him. Shinra himself even heavily implies in the same dialogue  that he doesn't know any Soldier's name apart from Sephiroth's.  So you've got a brick wall by Shinra's own words.
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Apparently, according to the canon as established by the compilation, Cloud is apparently not basing stuff on what Zack told him - rather the Jenova cells are apparently feeding him memories from Zack. Apparently Jenova can read minds, and there's some collective shared consciousness bullcrap going on between people with Jenova cells.

I'm not trying to take away from your overall point, or condone this contrived plot-addition, but this is apparently the case, and the explanation for why Cloud seemingly remembers stuff he wasn't there to witness, or had no reasonable way of knowing.
I say apparently a bunch, because as anyone with half a mind realizes, that is a dumb reason, SE's established canon or not.
 
Haha yeah.  It's just a bullshit excuse after the fact.  I always think it's even more desperate when the game company or original writers do it, too.  Kojima is a master of bullshit after the fact.
 
I mean, the idea of some sort of collective consciousness between Jenova recipients is kind of a core plot point of the game - that's how Reunion works, and how Sephiroth manages to appear to the player several times without ever leaving the crater - he's imprinting himself on Jenova-infused people, the 'Sephiroth clones' (God, clone was such a poor choice of words in the original translation).  That's in the Ultimania.

'Long time no see' is definitely rather informal as a greeting, but Cloud is also rather flippant and aloof in general at this point in the story.  It could just be that he's greeting the president informally out of a lack of respect.
 
That isn't the same as reading their minds by a long shot, though.  Nowhere is that made clear in the game. And does it have some sort of range?  When you start asking questions like those, there really isn't an answer. Cloud states quite clearly that he based his fake life on stories told by Zax. It still doesn't matter, even if mind reading was there, because the writing is still poor.  :-D :P

No one says "long time no see" to someone they have never met. It is used to mean you have met someone before - and usually numerous times.


Anyway, we're going around in circles.
https://www.ff7catalog.com/posts/222129/

Why can't it just be poor writing?  Why does every inconsistency need an iron clad alibi?
 
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I mean, the idea of some sort of collective consciousness between Jenova recipients is kind of a core plot point of the game
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Sephiroth/Jenova exerting control over people with the cells in them happens yes - extracting memories from one person and feeding it to another? There's nothing in the original to suggest that is happening.

- that's how Reunion works,
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Reunion is simply a calling between the cells. It's never said to be some kind of conscious process from the main cluster that would indicate it could rummage through people's memories, extract the pertinent ones for some grand plot and then feed them to Cloud.
It doesn't even make sense.
Why would Jenova enforce Cloud's delusion? What possible reason, at that point in the plot, would Jenova have to reshape Cloud's personality?
To accept that explanation of events, Jenova would have to be A.) capable of rummaging through Zack's memories after he is already dead, and then plant them in Cloud's head, and B.) she/it would have to have a reason to do that despite the fact that this conflicts with the narrative indicating that Jenova awakens in Shinra building when Cloud comes there (after all, if she was already awake, doing stuff like manipulating Cloud, why didn't she break out earlier?)

In the original, Cloud's mind is being messed with by Sephiroth's conscious efforts through the Jenova cells.
Since Sephiroth didn't have Cloud on his radar back when Cloud woke up in Midgar after Zack died, he wouldn't have done it either.

and how Sephiroth manages to appear to the player several times without ever leaving the crater
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That's not at all how Sephiroth appears outside of the crater. The Sephiroth you encounter outside the crater is the Jenova that broke out of Shinra building taking on Sephiroth's form.

- he's imprinting himself on Jenova-infused people, the 'Sephiroth clones' (God, clone was such a poor choice of words in the original translation).  That's in the Ultimania.
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Where in the Ultimania is that? Even if it was though, the problem is that the Ultimania guide was released September 9, 2005.
Whatever in that guide has no bearing on whether or not something was thought up when the game was first made and released, and has no bearing on this discussion since this is a discussion on what was intended with the original not about what has been made the case post hoc through compilation ret-cons, which it is likely to contain given it was released only days before Advent Children, likely as a part of the FFVII compilation initiative.
 
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Hian is right.  Unfortunately, this thread is still going because, for some reason, people cannot accept the writers are fallible.  It's the same with nearly every single fiction that has a fanbase.  I hardly ever hear "Yeah, the writers didn't think that far ahead" or "It's a plot hole."  It's always some bizarre workaround created by the fanbase.  It's the unwillingness to accept that a favourite game or story can have flaws.  Even the greatest pieces of fiction have flaws or bad writing or lazy writing.

This is no exception. It's simply bad writing for the 1000th time.

I had a discussion with Covarr not long back about The Lord of the Rings.  I absolutely hate that Tolkien brought Gandalf back.  I think it was a terrible decision that undermines the fiction (the author of A Song of Ice and Fire, Martin, agrees). Tolkien decided that the main god would never let the allies fail and will cheat to make sure they win.  So, from his point of view, it's not a plot fault. But from my point of view, when you can just bring characters back from the dead - even stronger than before - it cheapens the fiction and tension.   A writer can cheat or be lazy or ignore problems. No matter how good the writer is.  It doesn't need fans to start doing their job.  If you are doing their job, it means that they didn't do their job.

I don't mind fan fiction that corrects issues and what not.  What I take issue to is the whitewashing of clear errors in writing as if they are not errors. Star Trek fans are the worst. They make me want to punch them. It's never bad writing - just a stroke of genius on the part of the writers to make us "read between the lines" and "join up the dots". Frequently using future stories to explain past ones. :P
 
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Well, it's a contrivance; when you're writing something and what you want to happen doesn't have the prompt you need, that's when you either need to rewrite what goes on up to that point, re-do the entire the scene, or come up with something on the fly that triggers it to happen. A throw-away line can save a lot of time if it works, but they usually don't stand up to scrutiny.
 
Sephiroth/Jenova exerting control over people with the cells in them happens yes - extracting memories from one person and feeding it to another? There's nothing in the original to suggest that is happening.
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Multiple Sephiroth clones is exactly that. Sephiroth, with control of his large amount of Jenova cells(with? her consent) completely copies himself and imprints his consciousness on multiple other people with Jenova cells implanted.

Reunion is simply a calling between the cells. It's never said to be some kind of conscious process from the main cluster that would indicate it could rummage through people's memories, extract the pertinent ones for some grand plot and then feed them to Cloud.
It doesn't even make sense.
Why would Jenova enforce Cloud's delusion? What possible reason, at that point in the plot, would Jenova have to reshape Cloud's personality?
To accept that explanation of events, Jenova would have to be A.) capable of rummaging through Zack's memories after he is already dead, and then plant them in Cloud's head, and B.) she/it would have to have a reason to do that despite the fact that this conflicts with the narrative indicating that Jenova awakens in Shinra building when Cloud comes there (after all, if she was already awake, doing stuff like manipulating Cloud, why didn't she break out earlier?)
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Reunion is a calling between Jenova cell injected humans, which does whatever necessary to modify their behavior to make sure they all end up at Jenova. The reason Jenova is trying to change Cloud into Zack is to make another strong hero like Sephiroth to then manipulate, just like him. He wasn't always evil, he was a war hero at one point.
A)Zack and Cloud were both injected with Jenova cells, which gave Cloud mako poisoning. From Jenova's lifestream energy. They then traveled together for a long time giving plenty of time for Jenova to attempt to rebuild Cloud like Zack. At which point Zack died, and Jenova transfered her focus from Zack to Cloud.
B) I don't think Jenova's all there anymore. Either mentally or physically or spiritually. Cloud had to take Jenova cells with her planets lifestream energy and give it "experiances" to grow, as Bugenhamen explains. Which reawakens her when you come near, which in turn allows Sephiroth to find her and use a horribly mangled Jenova host turned sephy pupa(probably another of hojo's experiments that broke out and hurt itself) to kill president Shinra and carry her away.

In the original, Cloud's mind is being messed with by Sephiroth's conscious efforts through the Jenova cells.
Since Sephiroth didn't have Cloud on his radar back when Cloud woke up in Midgar after Zack died, he wouldn't have done it either.
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Jenova is the one who started all this when she sensed the cells in Sephiroth being ripe for harvest for lifestream energy and caused him to do what he did in Nibelhiem to get in close proximity with him. She's the one who fucked with his mind, though we never learn who she replaced his memories with. Though when he first starts going crazy he thinks he's an ancient, so maybe its based off of one of them that died when she tried to conquer them.
 
Sephiroth/Jenova suggests in the illusion at the crater that the Jenova cells in Cloud created "Cloud" from Tifa's memories. While that wasn't true, I don't think there's much reason to think Jenova can't do that. For the player it alludes back to what Ifalna says in the recordings at Icicle Inn, about Jenova appearing as people's loved ones -- taken from their memories.

With that said, I thought it was a point in the original game that in Cloud's case it wasn't Jenova stealing memories. It doesn't have to be. Cloud didn't get his Nibelheim memories directly from Zack's memories. Cloud has his Nibelheim memories because he was there, with the blanks filled in from what Zack told him (I believe all scenes where Cloud wasn't actually there, Tifa also wasn't there so we don't have to believe his retelling of those scenes were 100% accurate because there's no one to call him out anyway). Jenova's involvement is that her cells "helps" Cloud patch together his mind, filling in gaps and somewhat influenced by Cloud's ideal (which Zack fulfilled).

The reveal Cloud was there the whole time explains why he can fairly accurately retell the events. If the truth is Jenova still siphoned Zack's memories, then.... Well it's just absolutely unnecessary.
 
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If the truth is Jenova still siphoned Zack's memories, then.... Well it's just absolutely unnecessary.
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Yes, but we do know she siphoned his build at least for sure. That's why Cloud is confused, even though he realizes Jenova is messing with his mind making him think he's SOLDIER 1ST CLASS, he still has the body of one. But he doesn't care bout that, he's gonna fight for the planet etc.
 
He has his strong build because:

"I never was in SOLDIER.[...]And I created an illusion of myself made up of what I had seen in my life[...]"
"Illusion, huh...? Pretty damn strong for a 'lusion, I'd say."
"I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells..."

The game's explanation is that is just what Jenova cells do.
 
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Yes, Jenova cells injected into humans allow their perceptions to alter their physical form. Sephiroth's sword skills and all his strength are probably stolen from the masters in Wutai he killed. Zack's strength is copied from Sephiroth's. But Cloud's is copied from Zack's.

Cloud: "I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone
Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when
creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to
Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For
better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with
Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The
combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will and my own weakness are
what created me. Everyone knew that. I'm...... Cloud. ......the master of my own
illusionary world. But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more...... I'm
going to live my life without pretending."

Cloud should not have survived the procedure. The only reason he did, is because A)Shinra Moved and resealed Jenova B)Cloud managed to hurt Sephiroth and toss him into the lifestream for x amount of time until he made his way to the north C)Since Cloud copied Zack, instead of having Jenova/Sephiroth in his head, he had Jenova/Zack.

That's who's always talking to you when you pass out. A Zack copy made by Jenova being forced to pretend he's you but fighting her control. That's who Sephiroth attempts to use multiple times to control you. That's why you don't turn into a mindless black cloaked zombie, but also why Sephiroth is able to call him out to get you to hand over the black materia while your unaltered form attempts to stop it.

The true Zack and Aerith remove Jenova from Cloud and dump him in mideel. How else did you get away from Sephiroth and Jenova and the Reunion? How else do you again travel back into the lifestream and it does a similar memory repair/transfer between Cloud and Tifa to restore Cloud.

Materia is literally the "Knowledge and memories of the Ancients in crystalized form" which means mako is at least partially memories, and if thats true, then memories themselves are mako, and if a rudimentary technological government can figure out how to introduce mako by exposure. The dying mother of an evil planet thousands of years old well versed in magic can easily move mako between hosts.
 
It's probably best to use the retranslation here too, given the original game's problems:

Code: [Select]
Code: 
{CLOUD}“I never was in Soldier.”{NEW}“The events from five years ago,  all the stuff about Soldier,it  was an illusion that I created.”{NEW}“I left my village looking for glory,  but never made it.”{NEW}“I was ashamed of being so weak.  Then I heard Zax talking about  himself…”{NEW}“I mixed his life with my own  and created a fantasy.”{NEW}“I’ve been trapped  in it ever since.”------------------------------{BARRET}“An illusion?  Sure had me fooled.”------------------------------{CLOUD}“Physically,I’m very similar  to someone in Soldier.”{NEW}“Hojo’s Sephiroth-Copies are nothing  special. The process used to create  them is identical to the one that’s  used on members of Soldier.”------------------------------{CLOUD}“You see,those who are a good  prospect for Soldier aren’t just  irradiated with Mako…”{NEW}“Their bodies are actually  injected with Jenova cells.”------------------------------{CLOUD}“For better or worse,only the  strong-willed are chosen.”{NEW}“This has nothing to do with  Jenova’s Reunion,either.”{NEW}“It’s just that if the process is used  on someone who’s weak-willed,  like me,they lose themselves.”------------------------------{CLOUD}“A man born from Jenova  cells,Sephiroth’s will,and  his own weaknesses.”{NEW}“That’s… the {CLOUD}  that you all knew.”------------------------------{CLOUD}“The master of my  own illusionary world.”{NEW}
 
The original game makes it clear that a person can be controlled if they are weak willed.  But this has nothing to do with reading a person's thoughts - and Cloud explains above exactly how his fake life came into being.

Plus, this still would not explain away the poor exposition.

That's who's always talking to you when you pass out. A Zack copy made by Jenova being forced to pretend he's you but fighting her control
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That's absolutely not right at all. It's the real Cloud fighting the fake ego. It has absolutely nothing to do with Jenova or Sephiroth. This is made much clearer in the retranslation.
 
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So Sephiroth can copy his entire mind and plant it in a failed clone, using Jenova cells and the lifestream like wifi(while carrying chunks of Jenova cells only that project her). But the actual Jenova cells which caused Sephiroth to learn how to do this and behave like so can't do it on a very local scale with memories having to so with being in soldier first class only.

Just doesn't make sense.
 
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