.

[hian]

Yeah yeah, I am sorry for being hostile. My first post was anything but though. I was replying in kind. Perhaps that's not the smartest thing I could have done, but I am not accustomed to taking shit lying down for no apparent reason.

You have forgotten a very real middle option: a "wait and see" approach. I don't wanna be too positive about this because I don't deny there really is a high chance they'll Frog this up, but I also don't wanna be too negative lest the game turns out good and I end up looking like a moron for talking Sleep about it. As it stands, they've shown precious little, and for me to form a strong opinion of any sort, whether it be positive or negative, would be foolhardy IMO.

I didn't forget it - I just didn't see a point of mentioning it since it didn't pertain to positions held by most people in the conversation.

I don't agree that they've shown "precious little" though (well they have, but not in context). They've shown and said enough to cement the fact that this remake is going to deviate to quite some degree from the original, and very likely in the direction of later spin-off products like AC.
I also don't agree that forming a negative opinion is foolhardy - As I said, if you go in with lowered expectations, there is no real loss so it can hardly be considered foolhardy.

Unless, it's as you say that you're worried about how you'll look if it turns out okay after you voiced
an opinion to the effect that it was going to be bad, which I think is pointless. You can hold an opinion and still qualify it
as something you hold on a scale of probability, not as a certainty - which is what I am doing.
I think it's going to be bad. That does not mean that it will, or that I will have any issue eating those words if it turns out to be good.

There is nothing bad, or embarrassing about being wrong.
Personally, from a perspective of self-development, I think it's better for people to have opinions and learn to be wrong, then for people to avoid having opinions out of fear of being wrong.

That said, I'm well aware my standards for what I'll enjoy are probably lower, or at least different, from everyone else's. I don't have a problem with broad, sweeping changes inherently, as long as they don't suck in and of themselves

Here we agree. My worry though, is that the changes they're planning aren't the kind of changes that would make a reboot/re-imagining a good game in its own right.

(for example, the remake of the movie Sabrina was significantly different than the original, and I thought it was much better for it). And if they are going to change things, I'd certainly much rather those changes appear in the form of a remake than patches and updates to the original. People give George Lucas a lot of Slow about changing the original Star Wars, but there really is something to be said about applying creative liberties to a new product rather than halfheartedly MBarriering it onto the original.

The thing though, is that there is such a thing as good, faithful remakes that aren't just halfhearted semi-upgrades etc.

The Resident Evil 1 HD remake is to my mind, probably the best remake of a PS1 classic (or perhaps of any classic) that I've ever seen.
It manages to be stay the same, and be different at the same time. It's updated in all ways that matter, yet also stays the same
in all ways that matter.

This kinda stuff is possible, and it's because it's possible that FF7R leaves such a sour taste in my mouth after the trailer
and the interviews that we have to go on now.

As DLPB has said several times over - SE has a bad track-record as a company dealing with the FF7 universe, and even
in making JRPGs in general. How many times do they have to screw up before it becomes reasonable to lower one's
expectations of their future projects?
Or are you opposed to lowered expectations in general?

 

[DLPB_]

It's sad too, because once upon a time I remember being so confident about FF that I could preorder.  I preordered FF8 and I think I did FF9 10 and 10-2 (yeah, the one where it all fell apart and I then stopped preordering FF).  FF7-10 were so damn good and hardly put a foot wrong.  At the very least you were getting something that had been made with passion and effort.  But now, you literally could not pay me to play modern FF games.

 

[Covarr]

Or are you opposed to lowered expectations in general?

Not so much opposed. People can expect what they want, and I'm in no position to hold that against them, whatever those expectations may be. Personally, I don't like having any expectations at all.

Real life example: I was really disappointed by the Super Mario Maker reveal last year. It seemed underpowered and gimmicky for what it was. Now, having seen the huge improvements made and what they showed this year at E3, I'm really excited for it. On the one hand, I am glad to be proven wrong, but on the other hand, I don't like having to eat my words, y'know? I mean, if you don't mind that, more power to ya. I kinda envy that. But I really don't wanna be in that situation myself, so largely I find it easier to just watch from the sidelines without any expectations either way.

One thing that does give me hope is that Nomura said they won't be adding new characters. I don't know if that means introducing new characters entirely, or not even from anywhere else in the compilation, but it does show that they're at least taking this somewhat seriously, and if they do manage to Berserk this up, it'll be a result of honest incompetence rather than simply not giving a Confusion. I can somewhat forgive misguided passion.

 

[White Wind]

I'm going to judge it on its own rather than as a Final Fantasy game or a remake, and if it holds up in that respect, I'll have fun with it, and if it doesn't, I won't.

I too would be inclined to that, but seriously  I think that will be hard, very hard.
That game will be a game on its own, okay, a revisited FF VII, another kind... but still FF VII. I can't see myself not thinking about the original if I play the remake, it's just impossible, comparisons will rise by themselves in our heads.
Now if it is for the better, then the greater ! I'll just Berserk my pants and go hug squirrels. If they make something valuable out of a new vision of FF VII, improving on the original, I'll be all for it obviously. And what would be the point of a remake if it's not improvement ?
But now if you tell me that the point is to boost the PS4 sales, well yeah  my hopes aren't high at all.

Even if we consider and play the remake as an independent entity  I think that comparisons will be unavoidable, and that parts of our opinion will be influenced by them.
We have a high opinion of the original, the tougher for SE, as fans we should be asking them for a piece of work of very high quality. Here I'm not debating what or how your standards may be for an independent game to be enjoyed by you, we're all different persons, different gamers, and that's all good. I'm just saying that the trend seems to be 'Let's hope it's not strawberries' rather than 'Hey it's fucking FF VII we're talking about, you rather give us the dope man!'. But it's more like, oh it's about FF VII? Okay, then anything will do... And that's a pitty. ( here I'm not saying that you Covarr said something like that )

( and shit, you cast Berserk before I did, while I was typing x) )

 

[StickySock]

I think one thing people might also be forgetting is that, just because you might have some enthusiasm for the remake, does not necessarily mean you are going to buy it, let alone at full price. I have some excitement, but it's not as though I have a Senix's store linked to my bank account, allowing them to make whatever they want. I was EXTREMELY interested in FF Type-0, but I haven't bought it and am not going to because after I learned more I discovered it was not my cup of tea.

It is logical to have low expectations, because it is basically a win-win, except for when you have to eat your words like Covarr said. That being said, however, sometimes its fun to have a little enthusiasm, to let the announcement brighten your day a little, even if by the time it comes all you have to say is "meh" to it. That exact scenario played out for me regarding Mass Effect 3 (excited initially but never bought it), and I survived it, and I probably would do it again.

I don't think, I may be wrong, but I don't think all viewpoints on the remake are bimodal. It seems to me like more of a gradient of expectations, where Covarr seems to be middle (wait and see), DLPB and hian seem to be lower (nearly convinced it will be crap), and others somewhere between all three. (I personally am more wait and see but undeniably a little happy about the news).

 

[DLPB_]

I agree, but not with the word "nearly".  I feel certain it will be crap haha.  But I'll be happy if I am wrong.  I just don't expect to be in the slightest.  I am not sure how much more convinced I am than Hian... that may prove interesting convo.  I assume this is using FF15 engine and ethos... if so... this is what we have to look forward to:

yay!

 

[Kaldarasha]

It has changed since then...

 

[DLPB_]

It's still the same hack slash chaotic system...  The original point is still the same imho.  It's not as bad as original video but there's still very little tactical thinking going on (and, as usual, one character).  Real time combat is hard to pull off.  Ocarina of Time did it, but it (and similar) had real thought put into it.

 

[White Wind]

Lock, Ice Arrow, hook-shot your icy foe and get near, Fire of Din in his face, slice him with Biggoron sword  8)

Now imagine Cait Sith jumping around everywhere, hitting everything with his megaphone and shouting at everyone ( dubbed by the Nyan Cat ).. Dan's living wet dream

 

[StickySock]

I do feel that there is a very good chance that the FF7 remake and FFXV will share a lot of similarities based on the knowledge that they are being made around the same time, that Square spent so much time and money developing the engine for FFXV, and that they seem to be very proud of FFXV and the type of game it is (renaming FFVSXIII to FFXV). I hope that if that really is the case, that FF7 will be able to correct some of the issues people will have in the final release of FFXV (at least when it comes to real time combat).

It's strange to think that these three things are true simultaneously: I am generally accepting of real time combat, many of my favorite games are real time combat, and one of my favorite game series of all time is Zelda, but I don't think that the hacky slashy part of Zelda has been executed very well (as far as 3D entries go. I'm not as experienced in the 2D entries) except for maybe Twilight Princess (don't particularly like this entry overall) and Wind Waker (I love this one though). It is generally too simplistic for my taste.

My personal opinion of hack and slashy 3D combat is that it has been nearly perfected in two different styles: Devil May Cry (1, 3, and 4) and the Souls series (Demon's, Dark, Bloodborne). Devil May Cry is fast & frantic action where the strategy comes from stringing together combos, dodging, and proper use of abilities and skills to kill everything in the most flashy way possible. I would say the complexity of that series rivals that of fighting games in terms of truly mastering characters. The Soul's series, on the other hand, has a very slow and deliberate pace where the goal is to value all of the moves and decisions you make in order to survive long enough to learn enough about the area and/or enemies to make it to the next checkpoint. These two series are why I can't bring myself to dismiss a game based on whether it has real time combat, because if any game could make the gameplay as deep as either of those two in real time I would buy it in a heartbeat.

That being said, it seems most modern third person action games have aimed to be in the middle of the two, in order to not require the thinking present in the Souls series or the reflexes required in the Devil May Cry series, but still retain the flashy action that makes for hype trailers. I guess I just hope in my mind that any game that is announced to have real time combat that it will satisfy me on at least one of those two fronts and am optimistic about the possibility until I am proven wrong.

But I do understand more and more by reading some of the viewpoints here, and elsewhere, that a lot of fans are very attached to FF7's combat, or the combat of the series pre-FFXII in general, and I can similarly understand why the entire series going down this new road can be so frustrating and make Senix seem so short-sighted. I know I'd be confused and frustrated if Dark Souls IV or Devil May Cry 5 were turn based.

 

[hian]

I agree, but not with the word "nearly".  I feel certain it will be crap haha.  But I'll be happy if I am wrong.  I just don't expect to be in the slightest.  I am not sure how much more convinced I am than Hian... that may prove interesting convo.  I assume this is using FF15 engine and ethos... if so... this is what we have to look forward to:

Personally, I can't really rate my own conviction here. It could pan out in many different ways -
What I can speak to, is my worry and my anxiety, and they are off the charts when it comes to FF7R.

I am not at all sure that it will be bad - I am afraid that I will be bad. I am very afraid that it will be bad.

As for action systems - they generally don't work with party-centered RPGs, which is why I am usually opposed to them in party-centered RPGs.
They can work in single-player RPGs because you only have one bloke to worry about.
The moment you add more, it becomes cluttered - I mean, even if they're just NPCs, they're still a hindrance more often
than not, which is why even in action games, people usually loath missions where you have to keep an NPC alive
as you run through level.

Action systems require immediate focus and twitch sensibilities - that doesn't work well with party-play most of the time,
which is problematic when RPGs often try to tell stories about a party of people going off on an adventure.
Apart from table-top conventions and traditions, that's one of the reasons the JRPG turn-based system was made to
begin with - to allow players to control (strategical control at that) an entire party of characters by themselves.
The ability to micro-manage every move of your entire party is a prerequisite for successful party play,
unless it's a multi-player game, or the A.I is fantastic.
The problem with the former is that this creates a plethora of issues (what if you don't have any friends to play with etc.?),
and the latter is that A.I's simply aren't that advanced yet, and are probably never going to be as good as a character
with a human being the sticks.

The party dynamic was one of the things I loathed about type-0 - I am all choked up trying to fend for the character I am controlling -
too much so to worry about what the other characters are getting up to, and before I know it, they're dying like flies because they're fvcking incompetent (not to mention that this game doesn't have an efficient system for healing characters you're not controlling, since
the spell are next to impossible to target allies with, and going to the menu for items doesn't pause the game,
meaning that the enemy will keep attacking while you're frantically searching for healing items on the menu that covers
the entire screen).

You can side-step all of those issues simply by opting for a turn-based system - or like in the Star Wars - Knights of the Old republic games, add a pause function that still allows you to change characters, queue orders/commands, use items etc.

The issue here is that we know that Nomura is not going to opt for the old battle system - we know that it's likely (though not to what degree) that they'll opt for an action system. The problem is that SE and the FF teams do not have a good track-record of
developing action battle systems.
Every single FF game I've played with an action-centric combat system have been horrible.

Dirge of Cerberus had a miserable camera and a lack-luster combat system that felt like a botched and bastardized child
of early Syphon Filter and Devil May Cry as designed by a bunch of people who hadn't payed attention
to the development of 3d person action games the last decade before they decided to attempt to make one.

Type-0 was, in its most basic form, a joy to play on the PS Vita with two analogue sticks, but it was plagued by horrible
balancing issues, and contrived game-play mechanics  like
- no proper means of revival in missions, except for
one spell, and a very limited supply of Phoenix Downs that resulted in the "reraise" state on party members for
a limited amount of time)
- Menu not pausing the game, and pausing the game not allowing you to browse the menu
- No proper way of targeting allies with quick items or spells
- Quick item slot defaulting to empty once you run out of the item you equipped, forcing you to go to the [unpausing] menu
to change it
- enemies getting kill-sight attacks on your party despite the fact that you have no proper revival options, or enemies
randomly going into "aggro" mode where they glow gold and can suddenly one-hit-kill your characters
- Not being able to exchange the 3 primary party-members for reserves unless one of them dies or if you're at
a save-point.
- Not being able to change skills/equipment except at save-points
and the list keeps on going.

FF15 is plagued by horrible camera, a contrived lock-on system, relatively flat combat with no real challenged except by
bosses with ridiculous amounts of HP and DMG.

In fact, the only FF action RPG that isn't horrible of the top of my head, is Crisis Core, but the combat there was limited to one
character, and was still pretty flat and repetitive most of the time.

So, point in case -
If they're going to remove the turn-based(ATB) system - and use an action system, the rate of failure increases exponentially unless they
A.) make Cloud the only playable character, which would be really fvcking boring in a game with a larger than life cast like FF7
B.) introduce a proper pause command menu

As a developer,
I've said it before, and I'll say it again - the only system that I think could appeal to both old and new fans with FF7R
while retaining strategical party play is a semi-ATB action system -

Perhaps where moving about and attacking/dodging is done in free-time, while item/magic/limit break
are tied to a command menu that can only be opened for each individual character once their respective ATB gauge is filled,
and when opened either stops or slows down time to allow the player to make deliberate choices (also with
the possibility of slowing down or stopping down time whenever else too, such as when changing characters).

That way you could get best of both worlds.
You could even add an option in the menu to adjust the time or slowing of speed that happens upon opening the command menu
to be true to the adjustment of the battle-speed in the original game.
Add a possibility to tie certain skills/items/magic to a quick use function mapped to the d-pad or something to that effect
so the action freaks won't have to scroll through menus all the time to get to the spells they want to use, and you have
a pretty good system going.
You could be dashing about with Cloud in one moment, stop time, change to Barret, fire up the command menu, set up a fire spell,
change back to Cloud and then continue on dashing about without any issues what so ever.
Everybody is happy.

Will SE do this? Probably not.
Unfortunately, I don't think Nomura has the design sense, nor the creativity to actually imagine a system like that.

 

[Izban]

Strangely, I actually find it quite difficult to get upset over the internet, I write how i talk and that can leave a lot to be desired for the grammar/spelling buffs that seem to permeate through the forum subculture...neither of which are terribly important to me, nor really are the opinions of me, people on the internet. Context if far more important if you ask me. </off topic>

Sure recent entries from SquEnix have been "iffy" and i'm sure there are gonna be a hell of a lot more in the way of gripes, that the internet is gonna point out, but it seem necessary to remind people that both Squaresoft and Enix while separate contributed massive amounts to the JRPG genre:FF6;FF7;Chrono Trigger; Dragon Quest.Both have also been responsible for some of the more amazing ARPGS; Sword of Mana;Secret of Mana;Secret of Evermore;Star Ocean;FF12.

Granted not all of the people involved in the creation of the previous masterpieces will be involved, seeing as some have left SquEnix, but one would assume that the majority of the team involved will be from the parent company, likely having worked on the games mentioned,<opinion>which really can't be a bad thing seeing as one of the reasons they said it would never happen was because they didn't want to 'break' it.</opinion>

From what i've seen of FF15 the combat is alot deeper then is first apparent, still however lacking but plenty of room to grow, until i see or get my hands on a copy i wont know for sure, but hey i am a fan of ARPGs for the same reason i prefer Doom over Halo(stupid rebounding health rewarding poor play) that being good play is rewarded by having some form of advantage later on usually in the way of health.

Gotta Agree with StickySock on the whole Zelda being an amazing game, while lacking a deep combat system(windwaker having the most complex combat in the series), no combo system(scored or otherwise) very limited movelist, sure you have a whole mess of items that shuffle the combat a little, but brass tax is transition is too clunky for it to really shine, Darksiders is an excellent example of a deepish combat system with some RPG elements strapped on, Darksiders 2 the beautiful buggy mess it is takes many steps forward but a small one back in that there is no dedicated way to block. The soul series quite probably one of the deepest/deliberate combat systems floating around in a non fighter, really it only adds a stamina bar and slows down play which in of itself increases immersion. Rogue Galaxy for the PS2, an ARPG much like the twisted love child of ARPG and JRPG, its fairly close to what i feel an ARPG should play like, a little bit on the easy side but difficulty is always hard for the gaming industry to get right.

<opinion>Again i maintain judging something before experiencing it is the epitome of a stupid idea, why would one choose to wallow in ignorance by assuming they know better, it follows a similar train of thought as racism</opinion>

Ultimately though everyone needs to remember that SquEnix is a company, their aim is to make money and they do that well, and how they do it, is make games and now they are giving an old one a make over, which can go either way, it could be the messiah or it could be the devils sweaty ball sack, either way i need more information before i make a choice about canceling my pre-order.

hopefully that is a little more coherent for you hian

 

[hian]

hopefully that is a little more coherent for you hian

Yes, which makes me wonder why you made the posts you did to begin with, unless you were trolling for reactions.
That being said, that was a much more reasonable post, despite the snark and your forced insertion of "<opinion></opinion>"
which seems to imply you either missed my point entirely or are persisting in trollish behavior in direct contradiction to the request
of a moderator.

Strangely, I actually find it quite difficult to get upset over the internet, I write how i talk and that can leave a lot to be desired for the grammar/spelling buffs that seem to permeate through the forum subculture...neither of which are terribly important to me, nor really are the opinions of me, people on the internet. Context if far more important if you ask me. </off topic>

I highly doubt you speak like this
"whoa gaiz.... clearly i poked a nerve.....seriously peeps not giving things a chance casting judgments before things are even shown,let alone played, thats just silly.(opinion... tiz the interwebz gaiz)" - but whatever, I'll humor you all the same.

As for context? What context would that be? Besides, in regards to your post, it's not the grammar or spelling I was critiquing. I don't mind spelling mistakes - And in your case, it's patently obvious it wasn't done by mistake - it was a conscious choice, and that's what made me make the comment I did.
You didn't type like a baboon on accident - you chose to do so. That's actually worse.

Sure recent entries from SquEnix have been "iffy" and i'm sure there are gonna be a hell of a lot more in the way of gripes, that the internet is gonna point out, but it seem necessary to remind people that both Squaresoft and Enix while separate contributed massive amounts to the JRPG genre:FF6;FF7;Chrono Trigger; Dragon Quest.Both have also been responsible for some of the more amazing ARPGS; Sword of Mana;Secret of Mana;Secret of Evermore;Star Ocean;FF12.

While separate yes - with different teams and different people in creative control. Now every content creator in SE answers to
a much larger pressure group of financial backers than before, as cogs in a huge economical enterprise that does a lot
more than just gaming at this point.
The first games you mention were all made before the merger, when the structure and scale of each company was completely was completely different, and before they started pumping out half-assed game after half-assed game.
As for the rest :

- Star Ocean wasn't developed by SE, or Squaresoft or Enix - it was developed by Tri-Ace and published by Enix, and now SE.
 
- Sword of Mana was mostly out-sourced to the co-production company Brownie Brown and is a Nintendo product produced
by Koichi Ishii, who has only worked on Nintendo production for the last decade - the last being the 3DS edition of Major's Mask.

- Secret of Mana is another Square Product that was produced by Hiromichi Tanaka, who hasn't done active work for
SE since the FFIII DS release back in 2006.

- Secret of Evermore was produced by Square's North American branch, people who have nothing to do with modern Japan-based
SE games what so ever.

- FF12 isn't an action RPG, it's a free-roam ATB game. The battle system, with the exception of on-map enemies and the ability
to move your characters while fighting, uses the exact same core system as the PS1 era Final Fantasies. It's also not a very good FF game in my opinion (could have been a great sequel to Vagrant Story, or an off-shot title to FF:Tactics).
It also started development 3 years before the merger, and was hampered by re-organization tied to the merger (which they then
tied up to a bunch of BS personal reasons, but Sakaguchi's initial hostility to the changes in staff and the timing speaks to
true nature of what was going on back then).

Non of these examples build into an argument of confidence for SE's ability to make a good action RPG, or even a good RPG, out of the FF7R. In fact, it makes the exact opposite argument - namely, how is SE supposed to make a good JRPG when all the primary minds behind their best games are no longer working for them on in-house productions?

Granted not all of the people involved in the creation of the previous masterpieces will be involved, seeing as some have left SquEnix, but one would assume that the majority of the team involved will be from the parent company, likely having worked on the games mentioned,<opinion>which really can't be a bad thing seeing as one of the reasons they said it would never happen was because they didn't want to 'break' it.</opinion>

Here's some game development 101 - the only people who "really" matter are the ones who call the shots (off course everybody matters though - without a team of dedicated scripters, no game would be made at all - my point is that they're ultimately working on directives).
FF7R could have 90% of the same staff as the original, but with a different writer, producer, executive producer, game/system designers, it could turn out a completely different game.
The majority of the work done on big budget games, is done by the scripters and designers on the floor - but they're only doing what they're told to do by the people with the creative function and executive power in the office with the big white-boards and projectors.

The people who made the games you just mentioned great - are no longer with SE, or working in the Nintendo/handheld branch and clearly won't be touching this product.
It doesn't matter if Nomura can scrap up the original event scripter, or battle event planner from the original game. They are not the ones who decide how the game turns out in the end.

The parent company of SE, lost a lot of people after the "merger"(I hate it when people call it that - it wasn't a merger, it was Squaresoft being bought out by Enix, and treated pretty poorly at that), and they've lost even more over the years with their constant change in direction alienating a lot of the old crowd.
 

From what i've seen of FF15 the combat is alot deeper then is first apparent, still however lacking but plenty of room to grow, until i see or get my hands on a copy i wont know for sure, but hey i am a fan of ARPGs for the same reason i prefer Doom over Halo(stupid rebounding health rewarding poor play) that being good play is rewarded by having some form of advantage later on usually in the way of health.

As a person who has Episode Duscae, I'd say the problems are pretty fundamental. You can try to put wrapping on a dung, but it's still just a dung.
I don't really get your analogy though - since FF15 seems literally to be the RPG equivalent of modern FPS games compared to the classic FPS games.

Rogue Galaxy for the PS2, an ARPG much like the twisted love child of ARPG and JRPG, its fairly close to what i feel an ARPG should play like, a little bit on the easy side but difficulty is always hard for the gaming industry to get right.

Here we agree. In fact, Rogue Galaxy is easily on my "top 5 JRPGs of all time"-list, and easily has one of the best battle system of any single player, non-fighting game that I can think of.
It trumps pretty much everything that SE has ever tried to do in terms of ARPG system by such a large stretch it's not even worth considering.
If FF7R took a leaf out of Rogue Galaxy, I could live with the change. But then again, Rogue Galaxy was made by Level-5 who're generally geniuses when it comes to game-design in general.
If and only if SE had outsourced the remake. There literally are so many more qualified dev teams to handle this right now, than
any in-house SE effort.

<opinion>Again i maintain judging something before experiencing it is the epitome of a stupid idea, why would one choose to wallow in ignorance by assuming they know better, it follows a similar train of thought as racism</opinion>

Then perhaps you should try to eat your own feces just to make sure that it tastes horrible and isn't good for you - you know, because judging something before experiencing it is the epitome of a stupid idea and all that?
On second though...

Ultimately though everyone needs to remember that SquEnix is a company, their aim is to make money and they do that well, and how they do it, is make games and now they are giving an old one a make over, which can go either way, it could be the messiah or it could be the devils sweaty ball sack, either way i need more information before i make a choice about canceling my pre-order.

Oh the irony... The god damn irony...

You'd think that not making a judgement about something you don't know anything about, would include not making a god damn pre-order. But hey, what do I know?

 

[DLPB_]

Yeah, I have to say - this whole "You need to play it before you have an opinion" is a very weak (wet toilet paper) and tired argument and I've heard it a number of times in the past too.  Before FF13 came out, I was fairly sure I'd hate it (based, once again, on interviews and such).  I got told that was unfair.  Then it did come out and I watched numerous videos and read reviews and refused to buy it on that basis.  I got told that was silly because I had to have played it - not watched someone else - before I could have an opinion.

I think what's really happening is fanboy goggles and the intolerance to a negative opinion.  I hardly ever see people shouted down for positive views, no matter the lack of logic or evidence.  It's only when someone says something in the negative that opinion suddenly doesn't count.  It's probably why religion got off the ground too - because people like to believe in sky fairies compared to blunt, unhappy reality.

In fact, here's a snippet of one of the debates I had about it (2010). 

seifer, I'm not sure if he's defending it necessarily as a good or fun game. He's just analyzing the logic and progression of the design that the game actually exhibits.

Of course, you wouldn't have any first-hand experience with XIII's design logic and progression since you've never played it.

As you keep reminding people. And as I keep reminding you, watching hours of video and reading tons of reviews means that I can criticise it fairly. I don't need to see the contents of a nappy to know what lies therein, nor do I need to understand the logical structure of the game to know what the devlopers have said.

Seifer, his critique is about the progression of battles from minute 1 to the endgame. So unless you've watched Youtube clips from the opening to closing cutscenes, including the set-up of each individual battle formation, you probably haven't the adequate experience to counter his analysis (which is, in fact, an analysis and not a critique of what the developers were too lazy to include in their RPG adventure - a point you continue to bring up, and which generally has no relevance to what XIII actually is).

And are you really saying that by reading reviews and watching clips on Youtube you can criticize something fairly? Like, really? Are you kidding?

I gave back an incredibly sarcastic and immature response to this so won't post it.  I used to be far worse than I am now.  ;D

If he was correct, we wouldn't have review sites, would we?  Clearly just buys games without even bothering to find out if they are rubbish and/or to his fancy.

 

[KnifeTheSky77]

I think you are right insofar as you can have an opinion on a game without playing it, however, the game does need to actually exist before you can say anything definitive about it.

 

[DLPB_]

I think you are right insofar as you can have an opinion on a game without playing it, however, the game does need to actually exist before you can say anything definitive about it.

I don't agree with that for the reasons I and Hian have given.  We aren't giving absolutes, we are giving our opinion that in all likelihood it's going to be very poor.  We do that on the basis of interviews, what we've seen so far, Senix track record, and videos they have/will release.  At the moment, it isn't "definitive", but I was absolutely sure FF13 would have a lazy battle system and that I wouldn't like it before it came out and I was right.  Equally, I believe I am going to be just as right this time.  But time will tell.  More interviews, more videos will give a more rounded view before it's even on the shelf.   I think videos are the most valuable, you can spot suck very easily.  I am looking forward to the videos they release.

I promise you that if I see something good in them, I will have a positive opinion on them.  I am, however, falling into the trap of saturating the subject.  So, with that, I'll leave until there's more to go on.

 

[StickySock]

Hian's analysis of Square Enix's action track record is pretty spot on IMO, as well as his thoughts on a hybrid system, and the fact that square is unlikely to actually create something that would satisfy both fan bases.

When it comes to Hian's and Dan's distain for the "don't knock it 'till you try" mentality, I completely agree. Another good analogy is that I never want to try crack, because I assume I may in fact become addicted and have it ruin my life. It's a thought I formed without having to try it based on knowledge of other cases and my own personal feelings. At the same time, I don't think it is wrong to let yourself be swept up in the excitement of the promise of something great (even if Square has no reason to make me actually believe it), as long as you didn't literally buy into or are being consistently duped, as some "diehard" fans may unfortunately experience from time to time.

But at the end of the day, some fans may legitimately like the gameplay we sit around criticizing, and have fun with it in one way or another. They may even legitimately prefer it to a more complex or thought-provoking system, which is not inherently wrong for them to like.

I don't think that people who are excited should not be, or that people who are pessimistic should not be either. We all have our reasons, and at the end of the day, logic is only impartial when viewed from within our own personal set of parameters for defining what logic is (probably could and would like to continue that discussion with anyone who wants to somewhere else).

The aspect of this discussion I have enjoyed reading and making lazy attempts to participate in is what we think we will see out of this game and what we hope or fear will come from it as well.

 

[Kaldarasha]

It's still the same hack slash chaotic system... 

I have played games (like Dragons Dogma) which have a similar system and are far away from being chaotic. Xenonblade Chronicles, which is like FFXII, was actually the first modern game which has felt like a true JRPG. So I wouldn't make the battle system that important.

Don't get me wrong I think the battle system is important but it need a drastically renew in its tactical department. As much as I believe it, they will make very close to the original, at last I haven't seen a remake of SE were they simply changed it (the port of The World ends with You to android doesn't count).

 

[hian]

But at the end of the day, some fans may legitimately like the gameplay we sit around criticizing, and have fun with it in one way or another. They may even legitimately prefer it to a more complex or thought-provoking system, which is not inherently wrong for them to like.

This is very true, and in all likelihood, the new generation of FF players (and possible FF players) probably enjoy the kind of game-play we see in FF15 than in the original FF7, which is why that's what we're likely to see in the remake.
It's a simply economical equation - if you're making a multi-million dollar production on what amounts to loaned money, you need to make sure that the products sell to as many people as possible. The original FF7 purists do not make up enough of the market to warrant being the primary target demographic for the remake considering the costs of it.

My problem is that this is a dick move of SE. After all, as I've said before, the FF franchise is here today because of the original FF7 fans.
Who's been asking for the remake? The fans of the original.
What kind of remake do most of these fans want? Difficult to answer, but my guess would be one that is close to the original.

What SE is doing now, to my mind, if they don't make the remake true to the original, is shitting in the face of those fans, their contribution to the franchise and the company and their legacy -
They're essentially going "Here you are - we're going to take advantage of the publicity that follows from finally 'giving in to fan demands' by
'remaking' one of gaming history's most iconic games, but we're going to market and shape it for a bunch of people who don't actually have a relationship with the game despite the fact that they might very well have been satisfied by a stand-alone original title anyway".

It reeks as a ploy of greedy corporation big-shots fueled by diagrams and power-point presentations done by marketing executives who don't give a flying fvck about FF as a piece of art, or about the history, culture and traditions surrounding the franchise.

I don't mind innovation. I don't mind action-focused FF games. But, if you want to make something like that - do like with FF15 - make an original title.
What I mind is exploiting the success of a former product to push out something resembling it - riding the wave so to speak - which is still fundamentally different.
Imagine if the Lord of The Rings movies hadn't come out yet, and they had just been announced - with the caveat that they would be set in a cyber-punk dystopian future of humanity on Mars. You know, just to capture a wider movie-going audience.
Would that sit well with fans of the books? No.
Would the reply "well, you still have the books so you can just enjoy those instead" be a good reply to those disdained fans? No.

I don't begrudge new possible fans a good FF game with an action system to play - in fact, they already probably have one coming up with FF15.
What I begrudge them is a multi-million dollar re-production of my favorite game, which I have been wanting and advocating for, for years, that is tailored to these people who neither played nor had a relationship to the game to begin with, at the expense of the things that made me like the game to begin with.
Why should they get that? What's the point? Except using us original fans, and the original game's reputation, as a spring-board for hype and image-building when they finally release it to the wider public ("hey you, I know you never played an FF game before, but look at this game - it's one of video-game history's most iconic titles, and we've remade it for the fans, and look they're teary eyed with joy! You should check it out!").

It's really fvcking sneaky, and it's really fvcking rude - if it's the case, that is.
If it is the case though, I'll literally fill a box with shit and rotten meat, and mail it to Nomura so that his house will never smell the same again, ever. Then, I'll never buy a SE product again, ever, just for good measure.

 

[Shard]

The last thing I bought from Squaresoft/Square-enix was a used copy of FF12 (technically they didn't make money from me, Gamestop did). That's not likely to change in the foreseeable future. I just don't enjoy mindless, strategy-less beat-em-ups where your characters are godly and can never die. If you want to tell a story, make a fucking movie. Games need to be interactive, and the remake most likely will fail that test.