.

[Kaldarasha]

Mass Effect?
Please NO! I don't want to see Barret and/or Vincent try to flirt with Cloud.

 

[jbi]

Very dry

I think the game needs to grow up.

That means, real physics, real characters.

I know the game is essentially fantasy, but it still needs to be somewhat plausible, especially in today's more adult audience.

 

[gjoerulv]

...
Besides the materia system, IMHO, the gameplay was boring at times, broken at other times, and rarely was engaging. As far as turned based combat goes, there are far better choices (and many of them as well) than FF7...

In my opinion, being someone who does not really like any entries in the compilation and was introduced to FF7 in 1999, the defining features were:

+Characters
+Storytelling
+Plot
+Materia System
EDIT: +I almost forgot Exploration and feeling like a captain (with a badass crew) when you fly the ship all over the world.

I was indifferent about the combat system

Not saying you are wrong here, but the storytelling and characters can be stale, boring, absurd, out of place, etc, at times too. As I've said before gameplay vs story ratio in the game is not well balanced at times (true for all games with story lol, so, shrug).

Everyone agrees the FF7 battle system has flaws. What I'm saying is that the gameplay/battle system formula is a huge factor when it comes to "defining" FF7. The system needs to be polished, not fixed.

To be fair, battle focused RPGs is about the only genre where it would be possible to even discuss what the actual gameplay is. I think it's extremely obvious *cough*thebattlesystem*cough*, but I recognize the room for interpretation.

...
I know the game is essentially fantasy, but it still needs to be somewhat plausible, especially in today's more adult audience.

Exactly, they need to appeal to the masses, which includes a more adult audience. The other stuff you said kinda ruins the entire lore of FF7. Basically what you are saying is that you want a Mass Effect esque game with a FF7 skin?


What I'm getting here is that people don't mind the turn based ATB sytem -> action based system. As long as it's good (duh!). I dunno, but I can't imagine the opposite being true. If FF7 was an action game originally, turning it into a turn-based game would be be blasphemy and ruin what FF7 was "all about". Slightly exaggerating here. Only slightly.

I'm looking forward to the day turn-based RPGs becomes trendy (or maybe I fear it)... T_T

 

[dkma841]

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[dkma841]

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[Covarr]

That's the right idea. Historically, Square Enix's FF remakes have usually had additional dungeons. This is a much greater in scope remake than those, but new sidequest content would absolutely be in tradition with what they usually do.

 

[StickySock]

Not saying you are wrong here, but the storytelling and characters can be stale, boring, absurd, out of place, etc, at times too. As I've said before gameplay vs story ratio in the game is not well balanced at times (true for all games with story lol, so, shrug).

True... I see your point and really have no way of countering it lol. At the end of the day, the parts of the game cannot be objectively viewed as more integral to the game and make up the "core" of the experience, so debating what aspects are more suited for change is really subjective. The major point I see in favor of the old school fans that are upset about losing ATB is that this is supposed to be a "remake", which should be improving what is already there and not changing any of the fundamental components. So if Square was to do a "remake", they should be balancing the ATB already present in the game, working to make it more engaging, and simultaneously correcting any mistakes made on the storytelling side (such as detracting plot holes). When changing a part of the game such as ATB, instead of improving it, the process should be called a "reboot" or "re-imagining". What I hope is that, if ATB is removed, the reason why Square went with "Remake" is that they are being a faithful to the rest of the game as possible. From the looks of it though, the game (from the trailer) is looking like it might possibly round out the compilation, and tailor the story, gameplay, and the rest of the game to fit more in that universe rather than being faithful to the original (which would be very disappointing for me).

I just personally feel like (possibly irrationally), out of all the ATB/Turn based Final Fantasies, FF7 is probably the one that could most easily be converted to another "battle system" (I hate that term but I'm too dumb to think of something else). Games like FF4, FF5, FF6, FF9, and FF10 (the other games in the series I like and am most familiar with) just would not seem right if they were not turn based or ATB. I don't know quite how to articulate why I do not feel the same for FF7 other than the reasons I previously mentioned. I guess I really feel like the Materia system, it's uniqueness, and how it is central to the plot of the story really drives home the feeling that it stole the show and make the ATB aspect of combat irrelevant to my enjoyment. I don't get the same feeling from say FF9's accessories or FF10's sphere grid, for example. If any of those games were to be remade and not be turn based, I'd definitely be scratching my head.

Another game I am not quite as fond of but could easily be an action RPG is FF12, because the only difference would be making the free running you can already do actually meaningful, and eliminate wait periods for physical attacks.

 

[Kaldarasha]

Another game I am not quite as fond of but could easily be an action RPG is FF12, because the only difference would be making the free running you can already do actually meaningful, and eliminate wait periods for physical attacks.

Play Dragon Age Origin and Dragon Age 2 and see how terrible this idea is.

 

[StickySock]

Play Dragon Age Origin and Dragon Age 2 and see how terrible this idea is.

I own both but haven't gotten around to playing either. I'm assuming you're saying DAO's combat is essentially FF12 (which I have played), and DA2's combat is the most likely implementation of real time elements.

From reading metacritic reviews (both critics and users), it seems that the most common and severe complaints about DA2 is that it is linear, repetitive (both in terms of activities and in assets and locales that are being constantly recycled), and otherwise "streamlined". The first two complaints have nothing to do with combat, and the "streamlined" (or what seems to be removal of features) is also a direct cause of what appears to be at attempt to cut down on the budget of the game. My suggestion does not necessitate any of those complaints.

Changing positioning to actually matter, that is, that attacks could generally be avoided depending on your position, I would argue would make the gameplay more strategic, as there is another aspect of the combat to consider. Removing the timer for physical attacks on the other hand, might seem like "dumbing down" if the game was not balanced accordingly so that one may not simply whack away on enemies with physical attacks until their health depleted. Neither suggestion requires removing any features.

What I do know is that FF12's combat feels like a shallow attempt at MMO-combat, where there is constant grinding and an emphasis on enemies with overly-large health bars IMO. FF12's combat had only one saving-grace for me, which was the gambit system, which does not necessitate either of the features I suggested changing. The gambit system itself was not balanced well with the rest of the game either, because the simplistic combat and overly-long battles encouraged Gambit setups that basically auto-played the game until the battle was over (if you did it properly you could literally go make a sandwich or watch tv for an hour until the battle was over).

Anything to make FF12's gameplay not so monotous would be a godsend for my opinion on the game, and at the very least an elimination of the wait time on physical attacks would give you something to do while your characters prepared for another summon or spell cast.

If I was to use a similar retort I would say: Play The Witcher and The Witcher 3 and see how great of an idea this is.

 

[Kaldarasha]

I don't see where FF12's battle system is like The Witcher.
I played The Witcher and The Witcher 2 and they actually only changed the semi action battles to full action. Nevertheless the player has always to hit a button to trigger an attack. I think both battle systems work, but for realism is the full action system better. And you have only to maintain one character.

Anyway Dragon Age was well balanced and has brought the old western RPG genre to this age. So the main reason to play DA2 was to go on with the great experience you got with DA, but for some reasons EA thought more action more sells, so let the player trigger the attack which would normally automatically be played. But there is no tactical advantage for this. Other in TW2 where they rebuild the battle system for a better action experience, instead to slip over a silly pseudo interaction.

 

[olearyf2525]

Mass Effect?
Please NO! I don't want to see Barret and/or Vincent try to flirt with Cloud.

Well you can go on a date with Barret, but that was a joke/ easter egg(y?) thing, and I found it funny. But I agree please Square Enix, no politically correct social just warrior agenda in my games. I don't think they will, Japan's media hasn't been infiltrated to the same extent as ours in America,Europe, etc.

Do you guys think they might go with a Kingdom hearts 2 type battle system except with the addition of Materia? I think that would make the most sense, and if done right it wouldn't be bad, the only bad thing about it is would you only be controlling cloud? That would kind of suck, especially since I'm assuming you'd miss out on using the limits of other party members or maybe you can give them orders like in dragon age origins tactics system? That might actually be neat on PC, but don't see it working with a controller.

 

[Kaldarasha]

I don't think that Nomura will do that. It will be a more controllable version of the FF13 battle system.
I would love it if they make it like Chrono Trigger.

 

[hian]

Very dry

I think the game needs to grow up.

That means, real physics, real characters.

I know the game is essentially fantasy, but it still needs to be somewhat plausible, especially in today's more adult audience.

This is a horrible sentiment.

Nothing "needs" to do anything when it comes to art and media - Art and media is not made because of needs, it's made because of wants and desires, often the express visions of the artists, not the demands of the people who feel entitled to engage with the product.

Today's audience is no more "adult" than it was back when the original was released, and the ratio of adults vs young adults vs kids playing the remake is not necessarily going to be different from the original.

To say that fantasy needs to be plausible is ridiculous. Fantasy is essentially and necessarily implausible. The only factor important to writing fantasy is consistency.
FF7 is consistently implausible, which makes it consist with itself. The more "realism" you add to it, the more glaring the absurdities of the game becomes, because it's now being inconsistent with what is realistic and what isn't, and it's being so selectively and arbitrarily.

You always have to suspend disbelief or conventional ideas of realism for fantasy to work within a narrative. You want Cloud to stop using swords in combat against people with machine-guns because it's unrealistic? Then why stop there? Why not remove the Buster Sword entirely?
After all, wielding the Buster Sword is physically impossible given Cloud's size.
It doesn't actually matter if Cloud is super-strong etc. because the weight of the blade, and the momentum created by swinging the blade would literally launch Cloud up into the air and send him flying off into the horizon unless it hit a solid object capable of withstanding the blow mid-swing.
So, why does one aspect demand realism but another does not?

I'd also make the argument that the sentiment of wanting games to "grow up" is essentially a childish and immature sentiment.
An adult doesn't feel insecure to the point that they can't engage with or enjoy with whimsical and fantastical narratives.
Case in point, plenty of adults enjoy Pixar and Disney movies.

while Materia would be a genuine scientific product as hinted at in the original game with some sort of electro chemically focused energy.

Where exactly is this hinted at? Sephiroth clearly explains that materia is a natural phenomenon, and not a scientific product.

"Summons" are superfluous and unnecessary and detract from the overall game IMO.

Superfluous in comparison to what? Again, things like these aren't there because they have to be - they're there because someone wanted them to be. The same can be said for absolutely anything in the system. The limit breaks don't have to be there either. Do they objectively add something important to the game-play the summons don't? Not really.
They're just there, because it's fun and interesting.

Also, how do they actually detract from the game? Care to qualify or elaborate?

Likewise the "Weapons" should have been constructed by the Cetra, and not the planet.

Why?

Ultimately what  would like to see is  a story with more depth and credibility. More science, less ridiculousness and real-time combat done correctly. I.e swords are useless unless close up, so cloud should use a gun for the most part unless he employs some sort of shield, i.e mass effect

Then go play a science-fiction game like Mass Effect.

Cloud uses a sword because he's a person who's enhanced by Mako and Jenova cells, who also knows how to use magic using materia. What use is a gun to him, when he can outmaneuver any ordinary human that might try to shoot him with a gun, and spend most of his time fighting huge monsters?

A gun runs out of ammo, and a gun's damage capacity is limited to its core components and ammunition (I.E facing an enemy like Jenova, clearly Cloud's sword will do more damage than a hand-gun will, for instance).
Melee weapons in the FF universe are clearly the better option for most battle scenarios these people face. It's also pretty clear that the vast majority of characters who rely on firearms usually do so because A.) they don't know how to use materias, or B.) are too weak to use melee weapons.
(Barret clearly didn't know how to use materia prior to meeting Cloud, and Vincent carries a gun because he's a former Turk)

Of course, this is post-hoc rationalization on my part. The only reason FF7 features both guns and swords, is because it fantasy, and the creators thought that would be cool. You can justify it though, just as you can make arguments that it doesn't work.
My point here though, is that this is a matter of taste, not of objective quality.

If you don't like that aspect of FF7, then you don't really like FF7 for what it is - and that point my question would be, why should the remake be catering to people like you? You'd be better off just playing Mass Effect.

I don't think that Nomura will do that. It will be a more controllable version of the FF13 battle system.
I would love it it if they make it like Chrono Trigger.

I am hoping for something similar.
On map, no transition entry for a menu-based combat system.

Have the enemies on screen, and the encounters triggered by touch - like Chrono Trigger.
Then, I'd like the rest of it to be more or less like FFX-2, regular ATB, but livened up by having the characters move about a bit,
and perhaps added variations to the attack animations etc. to make the combat seem more fluid and alive.

This way the game would play a lot like the original, but look and feel more up-to-date and probably satisfy younger and new fans as well. It would also mean that you could keep the battle theme, and the victory theme in as well.
After all, if it ends up being like FF15, the soundtrack transitions wouldn't work very well.

Imagine the FF7 battle theme cross-fading in and out constantly as you move in and out of range of enemies on the map, and the victory theme being cut off abruptly if another enemy walks into range just as you defeated the last ones to be in range previously.
Wouldn't work, and they'd likely cut it out, or make new themes entirely, and that would be just another stylistic change to the game that nobody really wants.

 

[DLPB_]

Taking one of your examples: Let's say the Cetra did create the Weapons.  How would that be more realistic?  It's LESS.  The idea is that the Weapons were born of the planet, like a rare mineral, and you can accept that.  The  second you state that the Cetra created them you have left yourself a massive problem:  How does a nomadic and primitive race create such technological wonders?  How?  It just makes your brain grind to a halt, which is what good fiction hopes to avoid.  It also isn't necessary.

Don't get me started on "scientific" explanations to materia. We all saw what happened when that bone head Lucas did that with the Force.  It cripped the whole mythology. 

This is a game.  You cannot strip out absurdities from battle or you would have no battle.  You can strip it out of cutscenes as much as possible.  And they did.

If you don't like that aspect of FF7, then you don't really like FF7 for what it is - and that point my question would be, why should the remake be catering to people like you? You'd be better off just playing Mass Effect.

Precisely. But the FF7 team don't see it our way, and so it will do its best to be as all-encompassing as it can.

 

[hian]

Precisely. But the FF7 team don't see it our way, and so it will do its best to be as all-encompassing as it can.

We'll see. As I've said - A lot of the changes that make the game more friendly to the general populace will probably come
about due to financial concerns, more so than fan-concerns.

Even if the entire FF7 remake team though that a true remake is the way to go, as long as the department gauging public
opinions on games, and the financial backers think otherwise they're left with little real choice but to mainstream it.

Going by one Nomura interview, it seems to be the case that several of the people on the team are FF7 conservatives. Too bad that Nomura in the very same interview pretty much said that those opinions won't be the ones holding the most definitional power in the development of the remake.

 

[Fischkopf]

I hope they don't 'orchestrate' the whole soundtrack... The original soundtrack had  a lot of electronic touches, which I know probably have been brought by technological limitations at the time, but still I think the electronic side was such a integral part of the soundtrack, it would be sad to hear everything just 'orchestrated'.

 

[DLPB_]

If they were half decent, they'd offer a "old" and "new"... but there's very little chance of that.  Even if it isn't orchestrated, they'll redo the soundtrack, which will further piss people off.  It did me with FFX (they added option later, but it was much easier to do that with FFX update).

 

[gjoerulv]

They will most likely 'techno', 'pop' and 'rock' up the soundtrack. Victory fanfare with lead guitar and all. Actually I'd rather they keep each tune within its original genre. I don't mind improving the quality, and seeing how these things tends to be butchered I would prefer it if SE kept the soundtrack within its safezone instead of 'j-poping' it up haha. I never heard the FFX remake, thus I cannot comment, but still, if it's one thing I'm somewhat positive of is that they don't fuck up the soundtrack too much. 'Advent Children' it up?

 

[Fischkopf]

They will most likely 'techno', 'pop' and 'rock' up the soundtrack. Victory fanfare with lead guitar and all. Actually I'd rather they keep each tune within its original genre. I don't mind improving the quality, and seeing how these things tends to be butchered I would prefer it if SE kept the soundtrack within its safezone instead of 'j-poping' it up haha.

Oh god I hope they don't add j-pop songs... Not in FF VII.

I wouldn't mind some rock themed tracks, but only where it's appropriate like in "Opressed People" (more reggae than rock, really) the Boss Theme or "Birth of a God".

There some are tracks off course that would benefit from orchestration, like "Shinra Company","Shinra Wages A Full Scale Attack", "Weapon Raid","Hurry Faster","Jenova Absolute".

The more quiet and moodier songs like "Flowers Blooming in the Church", "Desert Wasteland","You Can Hear the Cry of the Planet", "Parochial Town" should be left pretty much unchanged. Just use higher quality instruments but leave the arrangement as it is. And they need to keep that beautiful characteristic E-Piano. They need to have it in every track that had it originally... Hell, if they want a higher quality version of that piano, they can accurately recreate it on most modern software synths, which I even did myself in the free "Synth1" VSTi.

Yes, I'm extremely pedantic with this kind of stuff, this is FF VII we're talking about after all.

 

[hian]

They should just use the instruments that were intended for the tracks to begin with. Yes, the original soundtrack was entirely based on the electric synths of the PSX sound-chip - however, each of the melody lines were composed completely with specific instruments and synths in mind that they didn't have the resources to use or make at the time.
Most of the songs, like the songs in FF8 and FF9, use a combination of orchestral instruments, el-guitars, modern percussion and synth.

Point in case - The boss battle theme obviously employs synths, el-guitars, bass and modern percussion. The battle theme on the other hand employs almost purely orchestral instruments.

If they want to make the soundtrack true to the original, they should just use the original midi tracks, and replace each respective instrument or synth with a high-end VST (or real audio recording) and more modern high-end synths.

That being said though - they're going to have to make some changes due to presentation differences between the new and the old game.
In movies you never have one track just running on repeat in the back-ground with no care for what's actually going on in the scene.
The structure and flow of each pieces is tailored to the structure and flow of each scene. You see this kind of audio-structure in the old FF FMVs already.
Problem with the new game is that essentially any scene is now going to flow much more closely to the PSX era FMVs than the events of the original game.

To illustrate - While in the original characters just stood around and talked to each other rather statically with the camera locked in one position, that's probably not going to be the case anymore. Scenes will be designed to be more cinematic, with angles changing, panning, etc.
and more movement from the characters etc. for dramatic effect.
In that kind of cinematography the old-school set-up and use of the score won't work very well. It will feel very unnatural.

For that reason they're probably going to have to create a lot of rearrangements of the original themes to fit with the new cinematography - meaning they'll probably redo the entire soundtrack.

Just saying.