T
Threesixty
Guest
^^^
Except the game said Cloud wasn't effected with Mako...just Jenova.
Except the game said Cloud wasn't effected with Mako...just Jenova.
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N
NeoS
Guest
He had mako poisoning when Tifa found him, didn't he?
T
Threesixty
Guest
...Hojo's report said that one was effect by neither, and one was effected by Jenova cells and no mention of Mako Energy.
under secret scenes
http://www.kuponut.com/index.html?ilogo.html&ilinks.html&http://www.kuponut.com/games/ff7/
under secret scenes
N
NeoS
Guest
First post.
Could be i'm wrong, but i really thought Cloud had mako poisoning, that's why he's so sick in the truck when they escape Shinra mansion.
Could be i'm wrong, but i really thought Cloud had mako poisoning, that's why he's so sick in the truck when they escape Shinra mansion.
G
Ged
Guest
Well yes, I didn't say otherwise..
T
Threesixty
Guest
Why don't you ask yourself this:
Why does a clone of Sephiroth need Mako Energy and Jenova cells?
Lets forget the idea of not having Sephiroth's DNA....which I find real hard do believe....but we might as well forget it.
Mako Energy is the Soul of everyone. Memories....life....all things dead and unborn are the lifestream. Jenova's cells are her own DNA. So it's kinda obvious why the cells would be used. It's her seed.... maybe even her.
So, why is Mako needed to make a clone?
Memories maybe?
Perhaps since Cloud had no reaction to the mako, he had no memories in his mind.....he was a brainwashed blank, slate. Made into a mindless lump of flesh with no memories to be taken from the Mako Energy......no soul....no being.
^^^
Only problem with that theory is that it doesn't explain the scratched messages on the test tubes. I really think that the writers of FF7 didn't think that deep into their own story, and ran into contridictions. The details of FF7 really don't make any sense. I could say that Jenova made the reply on the testube...but that is just stretching it. I'm making it up, with no support from the dialog of the story.
Maybe not having a reaction to Mako Energy means that....he's been poisoned by Mako Energy. You can pretty much twist things into any form you want with the dialog of FF7. But then that doesn't make any sense with Zack's report.... Unless you stretch that by saying that you must have a reaction with Jenova, before the Mako therapy part of the cloning process becomes a factor. And since Zack had no reaction to the first part "Jenova", he would have no effect of the second part, "Mako".
Either way, your just making stuff up....filling in the holes left by Squaresoft.
There is no right answer....I guess that is what I was getting at, with my first response, on this mako poisoning thing..
Why does a clone of Sephiroth need Mako Energy and Jenova cells?
Lets forget the idea of not having Sephiroth's DNA....which I find real hard do believe....but we might as well forget it.
Mako Energy is the Soul of everyone. Memories....life....all things dead and unborn are the lifestream. Jenova's cells are her own DNA. So it's kinda obvious why the cells would be used. It's her seed.... maybe even her.
So, why is Mako needed to make a clone?
Memories maybe?
Perhaps since Cloud had no reaction to the mako, he had no memories in his mind.....he was a brainwashed blank, slate. Made into a mindless lump of flesh with no memories to be taken from the Mako Energy......no soul....no being.
^^^
Only problem with that theory is that it doesn't explain the scratched messages on the test tubes. I really think that the writers of FF7 didn't think that deep into their own story, and ran into contridictions. The details of FF7 really don't make any sense. I could say that Jenova made the reply on the testube...but that is just stretching it. I'm making it up, with no support from the dialog of the story.
Maybe not having a reaction to Mako Energy means that....he's been poisoned by Mako Energy. You can pretty much twist things into any form you want with the dialog of FF7. But then that doesn't make any sense with Zack's report.... Unless you stretch that by saying that you must have a reaction with Jenova, before the Mako therapy part of the cloning process becomes a factor. And since Zack had no reaction to the first part "Jenova", he would have no effect of the second part, "Mako".
Either way, your just making stuff up....filling in the holes left by Squaresoft.
There is no right answer....I guess that is what I was getting at, with my first response, on this mako poisoning thing..
N
NeoS
Guest
Well, that's what this topic's all about...
E
EmperorSteele
Guest
Mako, i figgure, is to counterbalance the J-cells derogitory effects on the mind and body. So someone can HAVE them, but they'd probably get very sick.
Zack wasn't affected by the J-cells and Mako, because, as a SOLDIER, he already HAD them. Of course he wouldn't show any future reaction. He was probably being used as a control to compare Cloud to *shrugs*
And Cloud OBVIOUSLY has mako: He's got the eyes. Cloud and Aeris ahve a little conversation about it:
Aeris
"Hey.... Cloud. Were you ever in SOLDIER?"
Cloud
"..."
"...I used to be. How did you guess?"
Aeris
"...Your eyes. They have a strange glow..."
Cloud
"That's the sign of those who have been infused with Mako..."
"A mark of SOLDIER."
"But, how did you know about that?"
Aeris
"...Oh, nothing."
Now, we all KNOW that Cloud never MADE IT into SOLDIER, so he had to've gotten that glow from somewhere, ie, Hojos tinkering.
Zack wasn't affected by the J-cells and Mako, because, as a SOLDIER, he already HAD them. Of course he wouldn't show any future reaction. He was probably being used as a control to compare Cloud to *shrugs*
And Cloud OBVIOUSLY has mako: He's got the eyes. Cloud and Aeris ahve a little conversation about it:
Aeris
"Hey.... Cloud. Were you ever in SOLDIER?"
Cloud
"..."
"...I used to be. How did you guess?"
Aeris
"...Your eyes. They have a strange glow..."
Cloud
"That's the sign of those who have been infused with Mako..."
"A mark of SOLDIER."
"But, how did you know about that?"
Aeris
"...Oh, nothing."
Now, we all KNOW that Cloud never MADE IT into SOLDIER, so he had to've gotten that glow from somewhere, ie, Hojos tinkering.
T
Threesixty
Guest
^^^^
or Jenova's cells.
or Jenova's cells.
H
HBK187
Guest
First off this post's info was put together by me an my bro (HBK188) whom i couldn't have done this without.
Sephiroth Zack and Cloud how things really are...
OK Lets start this off with professor Gast. Being the man who did the original research on the Jenova project... But research was all he really did. He got the information from Ilfana about Jenova. That Jenova exists and will not die and the planet is keeping a close eye on it. Hojo got wind of everything because Gast was reporting what he found out to shinra and Hojo kept some of those reports to himself. Now let's cut to Lucrecia and the birth of Sephiroth. Sephiroth was the son of Lucrecia and Hojo. Hojo convinced her to give there unborn child to the Jenova project. Before Sephiroth was born he injected him with Jenova cells. And thats how sephiroth came about. Now cut to icicle inn. Hojo came to icicle inn and took Ilfana and Aeris and killed Gast and stole his research from there. Well as we all know Ilfana escaped with Aeris During or just slightly after the war in Wutai. Which happened atleast 17 years previous to the game. As yuffie wasn't born until after the war and she is 16. Well sephiroth became a great war hero during that time We don't know his exact age but i'm gonna guess he was around 14-16. And Aeris would have been about 5. Cloud woulda been 4 then. So Hojo had Ilfana and Aeris for between 4-5 years but they did escape and Ilfana was in bad shape from the escape she left Aeris with her new mom (the name escapes me at the moment) and passed away. Leaving Aeris the sole surviving ancient. Or does it? Sephiroth stated several times through out the game he was an ancient. And if you hunt around you'll find a document that states X day X month Jenova confirmed to be an ancient.... That part of the story get's kinda pushed aside by most people. But it's there. So Aeris and Sephiroth are the sole survivors of the Cetra race. Now before i get to Cloud let me make something clear. The ability to meld memories and create illusions is the power of Jenova ok now that thats said lets goet this going. Lets get to Cloud and some more important parts of the story. Cloud 7 years ago at the well with Tifa. Tifa wearing the green dress and the stars and the promise they made. Remember that? Those are really Cloud's memories. Theres a big mix of memories in clouds head. Between his and Zacks. I'll specify who's are who's throughout this. Cloud leaves then to join soldier at age 13 (7 years prior to the beginning of the game) 2 years pass and Cloud doesnt make it into soldier but he's still in shinra. Although Cloud does not make it into soldier he is despatched to Nibelheim with Sephiroth and Zack. Now the flashback he has in Kalm shows Him as a member of soldier 1st class. We all know that was Zack not Cloud. The real Cloud was the shinra guard in the truck with mostion sickness. Also the one who was standing guard first we know it was Cloud on guard duty first because Zack offered to come keep him company. Remember "Cloud" said he would come back an talk to the guard? Yea that was Zacks memory Cloud displayed there. And the reason Zack said he would was because him and cloud were friends (the reason there were only 3 beds is because 1 person was gonna be on guard all night they didnt need more than 3 beds) Anyways what follows is really unimportant until we get to the reactor the second time after the fire. (which is real proven by zaghanan, tifas teacher, in the letter he wrote to her) Tifa is severely wounded by Sephiroth and Zack also. Cloud follows and is outraged takes Zacks sword and cuts Sephiroth but does not kill him. Sephiroth limps inside the reactor a little more until he reaches Jenova and Cloud stops him. Sephiroth cuts him but cloud tosses him over the bridge with Sephiroths sword. The problem with the memory at Kalm is that Cloud could not have known what happened inside the reactor unless he'd taken Zack's place. So that too shows that Clouds flashback was of Zack's memory. Now the peice we saw at the # 5 reactor is true Tifa takes the sword and goes after Sephiroth this was how she was wounded at the reactor. This goes to prove Jenova's mind melding abilities because Cloud would not have Zacks memories of what happened before Cloud arrived and Zack would not have the concious memories of what happened after he was Cut. After everything here Hojo arrives with shinra and collects the bodies. (Tifa is not there Zanhagan saved her it said in her letter) It's at this point Hojo decides to test tube Cloud and Zack They didn't get # tattoos because they weren't full Sephiroth clones.but if they had they would have been 2 and 3 Sephiroth being 1... also Nanaki would have been 15 instead of 13 but anyways. Nanaki got a number but wasnt a full clone neither infact he hadn't had much done to him his main purpose was to extend the life span of the ancient which is why Hojo was gonna breed him and Aeris. But anyways Zack already has a tolerance for mako and the like so it doesnt affect him as much as it did Cloud (hence why he is still concious) But after all that and 5 years of it Cloud is pretty far gone. Zack breaks them out. Now the Jenova cells in cloud are very active due to the high concentration of mako and it's coming up here where Cloud absorbs Zacks memories. They take off twoards midgar and are being given a ride by a man in a truck where Zack decides he would become a mercenary an says Cloud can with him. He gives Cloud some clothes to wear. Well the driver drops them off on the cliffs outside midgar. It's here where the shinra guards catch them and kill Zack. Because Cloud was so messed up already they just left him for dead there. (Although in the report they made later they said he escaped...) But Cloud comes too and see's his friend lying there dead takes his sword and makes his way to midgar. He's sitting at the train station all dulled up on mako when he runs into Tifa. Now i beleive he absorbed some of Tifa's memories here but i really don't have much for proof to support this. But notice when Tifa starts talking to him she says his name and he questions it we get a flash (this is wear i think he absorbed some of her memories) and he knows whats going on and is semi back to normal for the most part. After this he relays "his" memories to Tifa and the game begins. Now Sephiroth is being chased around the entire game. I hate to disapoint ya all but that isn't the real Sephiroth. The real Sephiroth Throughout the game is in north crater. Thats where he came out of the lifestream. He is encased in materia as you here in the scene where you first see weapon an cloud gives the black materia to Sephiroth. Sephiroth has been here through out the entire game. The Sephiroth you chase around are Sephiroth clones. You remember the part on the way to the reunion where sephiroth says this is the end of this bodies usefulness? Yup just a clone. Sephiroth has the ability to manipulate his clones because of the Jenova cells. Since Cloud wasnt a true clone he couldnt completely control him but still had affect from time to time. You see his influance when Cloud gives the black materia to Sephiroth but you see he doesnt have total control when Clouds friends are able to stop him from killing Aeris. So yea that's the deal with Sephiroth Cloud and Zack. I think i covered just about everything here. Everything important anyways. But that's the whole deal i got the proof to back up most everything i've said an if ya all don't beleive something lemme know and i'll tell ya where to find the proof in the game.
Sephiroth Zack and Cloud how things really are...
OK Lets start this off with professor Gast. Being the man who did the original research on the Jenova project... But research was all he really did. He got the information from Ilfana about Jenova. That Jenova exists and will not die and the planet is keeping a close eye on it. Hojo got wind of everything because Gast was reporting what he found out to shinra and Hojo kept some of those reports to himself. Now let's cut to Lucrecia and the birth of Sephiroth. Sephiroth was the son of Lucrecia and Hojo. Hojo convinced her to give there unborn child to the Jenova project. Before Sephiroth was born he injected him with Jenova cells. And thats how sephiroth came about. Now cut to icicle inn. Hojo came to icicle inn and took Ilfana and Aeris and killed Gast and stole his research from there. Well as we all know Ilfana escaped with Aeris During or just slightly after the war in Wutai. Which happened atleast 17 years previous to the game. As yuffie wasn't born until after the war and she is 16. Well sephiroth became a great war hero during that time We don't know his exact age but i'm gonna guess he was around 14-16. And Aeris would have been about 5. Cloud woulda been 4 then. So Hojo had Ilfana and Aeris for between 4-5 years but they did escape and Ilfana was in bad shape from the escape she left Aeris with her new mom (the name escapes me at the moment) and passed away. Leaving Aeris the sole surviving ancient. Or does it? Sephiroth stated several times through out the game he was an ancient. And if you hunt around you'll find a document that states X day X month Jenova confirmed to be an ancient.... That part of the story get's kinda pushed aside by most people. But it's there. So Aeris and Sephiroth are the sole survivors of the Cetra race. Now before i get to Cloud let me make something clear. The ability to meld memories and create illusions is the power of Jenova ok now that thats said lets goet this going. Lets get to Cloud and some more important parts of the story. Cloud 7 years ago at the well with Tifa. Tifa wearing the green dress and the stars and the promise they made. Remember that? Those are really Cloud's memories. Theres a big mix of memories in clouds head. Between his and Zacks. I'll specify who's are who's throughout this. Cloud leaves then to join soldier at age 13 (7 years prior to the beginning of the game) 2 years pass and Cloud doesnt make it into soldier but he's still in shinra. Although Cloud does not make it into soldier he is despatched to Nibelheim with Sephiroth and Zack. Now the flashback he has in Kalm shows Him as a member of soldier 1st class. We all know that was Zack not Cloud. The real Cloud was the shinra guard in the truck with mostion sickness. Also the one who was standing guard first we know it was Cloud on guard duty first because Zack offered to come keep him company. Remember "Cloud" said he would come back an talk to the guard? Yea that was Zacks memory Cloud displayed there. And the reason Zack said he would was because him and cloud were friends (the reason there were only 3 beds is because 1 person was gonna be on guard all night they didnt need more than 3 beds) Anyways what follows is really unimportant until we get to the reactor the second time after the fire. (which is real proven by zaghanan, tifas teacher, in the letter he wrote to her) Tifa is severely wounded by Sephiroth and Zack also. Cloud follows and is outraged takes Zacks sword and cuts Sephiroth but does not kill him. Sephiroth limps inside the reactor a little more until he reaches Jenova and Cloud stops him. Sephiroth cuts him but cloud tosses him over the bridge with Sephiroths sword. The problem with the memory at Kalm is that Cloud could not have known what happened inside the reactor unless he'd taken Zack's place. So that too shows that Clouds flashback was of Zack's memory. Now the peice we saw at the # 5 reactor is true Tifa takes the sword and goes after Sephiroth this was how she was wounded at the reactor. This goes to prove Jenova's mind melding abilities because Cloud would not have Zacks memories of what happened before Cloud arrived and Zack would not have the concious memories of what happened after he was Cut. After everything here Hojo arrives with shinra and collects the bodies. (Tifa is not there Zanhagan saved her it said in her letter) It's at this point Hojo decides to test tube Cloud and Zack They didn't get # tattoos because they weren't full Sephiroth clones.but if they had they would have been 2 and 3 Sephiroth being 1... also Nanaki would have been 15 instead of 13 but anyways. Nanaki got a number but wasnt a full clone neither infact he hadn't had much done to him his main purpose was to extend the life span of the ancient which is why Hojo was gonna breed him and Aeris. But anyways Zack already has a tolerance for mako and the like so it doesnt affect him as much as it did Cloud (hence why he is still concious) But after all that and 5 years of it Cloud is pretty far gone. Zack breaks them out. Now the Jenova cells in cloud are very active due to the high concentration of mako and it's coming up here where Cloud absorbs Zacks memories. They take off twoards midgar and are being given a ride by a man in a truck where Zack decides he would become a mercenary an says Cloud can with him. He gives Cloud some clothes to wear. Well the driver drops them off on the cliffs outside midgar. It's here where the shinra guards catch them and kill Zack. Because Cloud was so messed up already they just left him for dead there. (Although in the report they made later they said he escaped...) But Cloud comes too and see's his friend lying there dead takes his sword and makes his way to midgar. He's sitting at the train station all dulled up on mako when he runs into Tifa. Now i beleive he absorbed some of Tifa's memories here but i really don't have much for proof to support this. But notice when Tifa starts talking to him she says his name and he questions it we get a flash (this is wear i think he absorbed some of her memories) and he knows whats going on and is semi back to normal for the most part. After this he relays "his" memories to Tifa and the game begins. Now Sephiroth is being chased around the entire game. I hate to disapoint ya all but that isn't the real Sephiroth. The real Sephiroth Throughout the game is in north crater. Thats where he came out of the lifestream. He is encased in materia as you here in the scene where you first see weapon an cloud gives the black materia to Sephiroth. Sephiroth has been here through out the entire game. The Sephiroth you chase around are Sephiroth clones. You remember the part on the way to the reunion where sephiroth says this is the end of this bodies usefulness? Yup just a clone. Sephiroth has the ability to manipulate his clones because of the Jenova cells. Since Cloud wasnt a true clone he couldnt completely control him but still had affect from time to time. You see his influance when Cloud gives the black materia to Sephiroth but you see he doesnt have total control when Clouds friends are able to stop him from killing Aeris. So yea that's the deal with Sephiroth Cloud and Zack. I think i covered just about everything here. Everything important anyways. But that's the whole deal i got the proof to back up most everything i've said an if ya all don't beleive something lemme know and i'll tell ya where to find the proof in the game.
N
NeoS
Guest
ok... that was pleasantly confusing?...
Anyway, i guess you DO cover the whole thing.
I guess i came pretty close didn't i? :wink:
Anyway, i guess you DO cover the whole thing.
I guess i came pretty close didn't i? :wink:
H
HBK187
Guest
lol sorry was so confusing tried to make it as clear as i could an i did leave a couple things out but nothing of real importance that i can see lol
B
Bunnie-Maru
Guest
Spaces wont bite...
@_@
@_@
G
Ged
Guest
Uhm. It's kind of the basics from the game put together.
Although I would give more interest to Nanaki and his role... This still seems to be a sort of enigma..
Although I would give more interest to Nanaki and his role... This still seems to be a sort of enigma..
N
NeoS
Guest
That's one thing that still bugs me... Isn't it weird that Nanaki has pups in the ending movie? I thought he was the last of his kind.
T
Threesixty
Guest
...you got most of that from me...didn't you. That Cloud is an empty shell, with first Zack's memories and later Tifa's memories powering him. Our story does not begin until Cloud finally absorbs Tifa's memories. That is when he gets a piece of his true self. It was a catalyst of awareness, sole to speak. None of the other clones were aware of their surroundings...they just wanted to be with Sephiroth. That is the only real, reason why Cloud is different from the other clones.
Jenova isn't a Cetra.....it was just assumed. When you go to Cosmo Canyon, you find out Gast may have been wrong. And when you find the tapes at that Icicle village, you find out he was wrong.
If you pay attention to Vincent's story, you find out that Gast was a part of creating Sephiroth. He knew about the Sephiroth experiment. He wanted a reincarnated Ancient, too. Hojo just went a step further...He wanted the Ancient to be his blood. Gast probably didn't know that Hojo had gotten the female researcher pregnant. But that really doesn't matter, that just shows how Hojo thought, and how selfesh he truely is. It's just ironic that Gast turns out to be the true father of an Ancient....His blood was in Aeris.
Of course none of these things really effect that....Brainstorm paragraph? you wrote....
Red13 had only one role in the story....to mate with Aeris so that the speciments that they created would have a long life span..... so the children could be experimented on....indefinitely. As for his cubs....I'm sure the planet is bigger than the game shows it to be...
Jenova isn't a Cetra.....it was just assumed. When you go to Cosmo Canyon, you find out Gast may have been wrong. And when you find the tapes at that Icicle village, you find out he was wrong.
If you pay attention to Vincent's story, you find out that Gast was a part of creating Sephiroth. He knew about the Sephiroth experiment. He wanted a reincarnated Ancient, too. Hojo just went a step further...He wanted the Ancient to be his blood. Gast probably didn't know that Hojo had gotten the female researcher pregnant. But that really doesn't matter, that just shows how Hojo thought, and how selfesh he truely is. It's just ironic that Gast turns out to be the true father of an Ancient....His blood was in Aeris.
Of course none of these things really effect that....Brainstorm paragraph? you wrote....
Red13 had only one role in the story....to mate with Aeris so that the speciments that they created would have a long life span..... so the children could be experimented on....indefinitely. As for his cubs....I'm sure the planet is bigger than the game shows it to be...
H
HBK187
Guest
Cloud isnt really an empty shell... just lost in himself. He has his memories they are just surpressed. Some things like flashback at #5 reactor are from his memory coming through and at the lifestream where it finaly shows that he is a shinra guard in nibelheim and not zack was his memory. Gast wasn't part of it he even said Gast wouldnt do something like this in Vincent's story Gast did the research and figured out how to do it Hojo took what Gast had learned and discovered and just took it the final step with Sephiroth. An on a side note... i think Nanaki and Aeris woulda had some messed up lookin kids lol
H
HBK187
Guest
ok nanaki didnt really have a huge role in the game Ged pretty sure his fate was to be another attempt at a clone had not cloud an the gang happened upon him he was also to mate with aeris... which means cross species mating is a possibility to where his pups came from in the ending. He was the last of his species but if he could mate with aeris why not someone else right? and apparently thats what the kids turned out as. Other than that all there was to nanaki is a way to bring cosmo canyon and buggenhagen (i'm sure thats spelled soo wrong lol) into the picture to further along/add (with the lil deal about his dad, Seto) to the story... thats about all there is to nanaki
C
Cyberman
Guest
You learn what Hojo is up to in those recordings in the icicle village.
Hojo was likely ploting Sephiroth at that time. Some of the hints are when they go to stop him from firing sister ray again.
Hojo is your stereo typical mad scientist character.
Cyb
Hojo was likely ploting Sephiroth at that time. Some of the hints are when they go to stop him from firing sister ray again.
Hojo is your stereo typical mad scientist character.
Cyb
H
HBK187
Guest
by the time hojo was in iceicle inn sephiroth was already born
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