[FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods and Modding Framework-The Reunion [R06f]

[DLPB_]

It's more complicated than I thought. Will look into it more.

edit. 


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sigh...

edit 2.

Think I have it.  8)

 

[Kaldarasha]

Dan does your new way to handle the music mean that oa can be played when selecting a new game instead to have attached to the video.

I would appreciate it if you could add the borders to all modules.

One last thing can be the DirectInput replaced with XInput plugin?

 

[DLPB_]

1. 0a could be put back in with an option.  I'll see about doing that at a much later time. I certainly can't force it since that would break numerous people's game. Including mine.

2. Border adding may prove tricky and time consuming for v little gain, so this will be a really distant future thing if at all.

3. That would also mean a lot of work for little gain (I'd also have to learn how dxinput etc works and make it work with ff7) - plus Aali's driver is messing around with it.  I doubt I'll be touching it. Currently, my joypad works fine with ff7.  is there some issue?

 

[Kaldarasha]

You do use a PS2 controller, don't you? I have a Xbox360 controller, with what the game has a problem with the controllers triggers. But, while I have written you my request I found a tool which actually does what I needed:Xinput Plus.

 

[Covarr]

Currently, my joypad works fine with ff7.  is there some issue?

There is an issue with Xinput that causes Xinput-based controllers running in DirectInput mode to treat the analog triggers as a single axis; left is negative and right is positive. They work fine in most games pushed individually, but cancel each other when used together, and are only seen by DirectInput apps as axes, not buttons. This is less a bug and more a really, really stupid design decision on Microsoft's part.

The software Kaldarasha linked works around this problem pretty well, so it's not a huge deal, but it is nicer when games have native XInput support to avoid this problem entirely without the need of third-party mapping software.

 

[Kaldarasha]

It would give us further the ability to add some nice features into the game, such as analog control (which I think will be a tough one to implement) and rumble (this is fairly easy to implement. We only need to attach specific rumble script files to the current played sound. Though, the tough part will be to create the rumble scripts). This might be also interesting for FF8 on PC since the psx has that features. Anyway that's nothing for now, it would be enough to swap to xinput.

 

[DLPB_]

with my new dll - yeah, the sound v rumble would be easier.  I can tell you without it, it would not. It sounds "easy" to replace all the sound but it isn't.  It means rewriting it all.  Luckily, that's what I've done.

 

[Elfergos]

I heard about this mod on eurogamer nearly 2 years ago, and always meant to check it out. I just downloaded and unzipped the .exe but it's not working for me. The first screen with sephiroth looks fine but the next screen with the disclaimer is not formatted correctly, the buttons at the very bottom of the screen are only partially visible, it is possible to guess which is which but when you continue the formatting is also wrong on the next screen with the 'next' button overlapping the cancel. When I press next it takes me back to the disclaimer page, cancel still cancels installation. I tried on both 05 and 03 and the same thing happens on both.

I'm attempting to run on Windows 10 with the the steam edition.

 

[DLPB_]

The font size dpi in Windows has to be set to 100%. Other programs out there will also have issues when you don't. I'm not sure how many, but it does happen.

 

[DLPB_]

shikun (Charlie Beer) is well on his way. A much needed addition to the team.

And meanwhile I am adding numerous options and fixes to my DLL.  60fps battles, frame based timers (for main clock, countdown, snowboard, submarine), new frame limiter, field centring, corrected coaster aimer - and more

It's looking very good!  ;D

 

[whgang99]

Hello, I have a question about the translation of "curse slash", which is "凶斬り" in japanese. As long as I know, chinese character 凶 has meaning similar to 'violent' or 'bad' (and is far from 'curse') and 斬 means 'slash'. And Cloud swings his sword in "凶" shaped track, which was probably why the name was translated as "cross slash" in the original translation. Is it really sure the name should be translated to "curse slash"?

 

[DLPB_]

It's a Japanese character too with a different meaning - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/凶#Japanese

凶 (hiragana きょう, romaji kyō)
ill fortune

"Ill fortune."

See The Reunion Database (link on first post)

It is an ill fortuned attack because the attack can inflict paralysis.

Single physical attack with three slices dealing 31⁄4 times normal damage and inflicting paralysis.

 

[ThunderPeel2001]

I know this has been done to death, so I apologise in advance. You must get this all the time. Sorry.

I'm still in the camp of people who are worried to try Beacause simply because the apparent adherence to literal translations (which I know you deny). I can't think of a better example of this than the changing of Phoenix Down to Phoenix Tail... simply because you were (apparently) unfamiliar with "down" to mean feathers and think "tail" is more explicitly (and literally) correct. Meanwhile, every other FF game in existence uses "Down" and, additionally, it makes perfect sense that it's a rare part of the mythical bird that grants life -- its down.

Looking through the document, I see that there are other literal changes that remove flavour: Eg. Hyper becomes the very literal and dull "Stimulant". Megalixir becomes "Last Elixir", which doesn't help a new player understand that's a more powerful version of an Elixir. Shrapnel becomes "Bomb's Fragment" (shrapnel is the perfect word for this). Bikini Briefs becomes "Bikini Underwear". It's hard to see why these changes are better.

And there are lots more unnecessary changes, too: Lance becomes Pike. Sector becomes District. Staff becomes Rod. Armlet becomes Bracelet. Glove becomes Gauntlet. Mallet becomes Hammer. Pot becomes Vase. These words are synonymous with each other, and didn't need to be changed at all.

There are times when a translation is very difficult, like the comedic/absurd "Orthopedic Underwear", implying the underwear was too old for Tifa at the time. This was changed to "Frilly Underwear", which loses all intention, even though it reads better. "Game Over" becomes "All Over". "Greased Lightning" becomes "Flash Lightning". "Head Hunter" becomes "Neck Hunter". All of which lose intention in the re-translation.

Qhimm's concern about changing things that a Japanese person would consider common into something an English player would be confused about are present, too. Consider changing Amulet to Omamori. A Japanese player would know this was an amulet... which is what it was called in the original translation, but an English player is left scratching their heads. Same goes for Hachimaki, a Japanese headband, which was called Headband in the original. And again with changing Autograph to Signed Shikishi.

That said, I'm unbelievably impressed by the attention to detail, and there are COUNTLESS examples when your translation is a genuine, undebatable correction. In those instances it's fantastic.

I should really reserve judgement until I feel brave enough to actually try the translation for myself. It's not fair to complain without having done that. So feel free to ignore me (I actually fully expect you to, you must have responded to these sorts of comments hundreds of times by now).

I do have one question I'd love for you to respond to, though: How many Japanese characters did FFVII have?

I wonder if we could Kickstart a fund to have Alexander O Smith do a proper translation... You've actually done a great deal of the heavy lifting, including the creation of software tools to make the job easier.

 

[DLPB_]

I don't know why this phoenix tail thing keeps cropping up (and, no offence, but perhaps it's because the people who keep repeating it are the ones who haven't played the retranslation).  There is a choice in the installer for this and many other choices we made that are correct.  It has nothing to do with literalism (there are tons of examples in there where we clearly opt for a non literal name  - "Enigma" is one of them). It's getting very annoying to keep having to defend localization choices that are optional.

LAST ELIXIR
PHOENIX TAIL
RAMU
MOGURI
HIGH POTION
DISTRICT

___________________________________________
CAN ALL BE CHANGED TO THEIR ORIGINAL (and incorrect) LOCALIZATIONS WITH AN OPTION IN THE INSTALLER. 
___________________________________________

The terms above are correct.  They were intended to be used by the original staff, but I accept that not everyone will want to use them.  Hence why an option is there. I am certainly not going to start adding options for "pikes" and other such nonsense. I've already stated 1000 times that the non dialogue is finalized. I am happy with it. I've made concessions, and I have made some things (including many character names) completely optional. I will go no further.

Edit.

I also suggest you wait for R06.

 

[ThunderPeel2001]

Yes, I see that option, and I installed it with those options enabled last night. It's good to see that the characters haven't lost their voices. (Even Barrat still speaks similarly, despite what I'd feared.) However your response is completely besides the point of my post. It doesn't matter one bit that you give options to not change them. That's got nothing to do with what my post is about at all.

Let's not discuss my thoughts on your decisions further.

I would, however, love to hear an answer to my question. Roughly how many Japanese characters would you estimate the game has?

 

[PetrucciJohn]

I hope this is the place to report this. I have found a possible error in the Mideel section of the game, where you find Cloud after he got Mako-poisoned. Yuffie says: "Hey, Doc, is Cloud going to okay?" Shouldn't it be: "...is Cloud going to be okay?"

Now, I know that this might have been corrected in the latest version, but, in the 7th Catalog, that's the version we have. Since this is the main Reunion thread, I thought it'd be best to post it here.

Related screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/lVS95

 

[EQ2Alyza]

You don't have to bug report the 7H version right now. The catalog uses an older version because I am holding off on updating until R06 is released. After that, we can start bug reporting.

 

[Rekhaizen]

I would, however, love to hear an answer to my question. Roughly how many Japanese characters would you estimate the game has?

If your concern is whether there are "enough Japanese characters" in the game to warrant keeping the names of the items you mentioned intact it's irrelevant because they are inherently Japanese in nature. Along with any others that have retained their Japanese descriptor in Beacause. This is backed up not only in how they are written, but by artwork/renders from the developers themselves.

Omamori - http://shillatime.org/finalfantasy7/accessory/amulet.jpg
Hachimaki - http://shillatime.org/finalfantasy7/accessory/headband.jpg

There is no official art/render of the サイン色紙 key item, but 色紙 are not simply paper one signs an autograph on. They're certain kinds of boards or paper that originally have been used for calligraphy, but now see a variety of uses in the modern day: parting messages, illustrations, and including autographs [from celebrities/famous figures].

Some words or ideas from other cultures you can't just  translate to to whatever closest resembles it in your own. I can recall DLPB and Luksy going over this very issue a long time ago. Whether it was this thread or the old one I forget. Should Beacause change the Sushi Plate meal in the Wall Market to Rice Roll or something to that effect because it isn't distinctly clear to an English player or one not familiar with Japanese cuisine?

As for your worries of unnecessary word changes due to being synonymous, or losing intent or flavour... Last Elixir, Bomb, Pike, Rod, Hammer, and Neck Hunter are literally that when you translate the katakana. The question here isn't why they were changed for the sake of it, but why did the original localization change them at all?

I don't know why this is still a topic of contention as DLPB has defined his rubric countless times before. I can't defend or explain every outlier case that doesn't follow it (ex. Hyper to Stimulant), but the vast majority do. Remember, the project isn't intended to outdo the flair or pizzazz of the original localization. The actual relocalization aspect of Reunion applies mainly to the dialogue anyway. Everything else: terms, weapons, names, etc., has already been explained to take a more literal approach.

I understand your concerns, as I was originally on that boat before, but you have to face that's just how it stands. If all else, you can always revert the things you dislike with the appropriate tool as suggested before. I know someone has done so with Green_goblin's PS1 port of Beacause on RHDN.

 

[DLPB_]

@PetrucciJohn:  Yes, that's an error. The Reunion Database (see first post) logs all such errors, but this one is a new one.  I have added it.  Thank you for your report.

@Rekhaizen: Thank you.

@ThunderPeel2001: I will respond to your remaining points now.  But first I want to say that I do not understand or fathom one bit why you would be critical of terms that you have a choice to use.  That does not seem at all logical to me.  You knew already that certain item names and character names were completely optional and yet still used those default names as a basis of attack?  I really don't understand.  If someone is giving you the option of different coloured shoes and you attack the store manager for offering you shoes in colours you don't like, that wouldn't be at all rational.

Eg. Hyper becomes the very literal and dull "Stimulant"

Whether it is "dull" is an opinion.  But here's the problem with your argument: The opposite item (the one that causes Sadness) is Tranquillizer.  "Hyper" is not near the opposite of a tranquillizer. It's been plucked from nowhere. Try and get "Hyper" from 興奮剤. It makes no sense and is a bad localization - even if you personally think it sounds better. Again, if we carry on down that road, we can change anything to be anything, which is not the purpose of this retranslation.  I absolutely dread the disaster this would have been if someone else had done it - It is little wonder to me that nearly all fan based retranslations are a total meltdown. Picking and choosing when to apply your own criteria based on "sounds better to me" is a no-no.

"Bomb's Fragment" (shrapnel is the perfect word for this)

Except that this is a fragment from the ENEMY called Bomb, which the Reunion Database notes.  So no excuse. Do you think I'd force such a literal term if there wasn't a damn good reason?

Your other criticisms of "changing for the sake of it" are not valid, because the items were not changed for the sake of it. There is always a reason - even if to be in-line with the original Japanese, actual real life weapon or item, or other logical reason.

I should really reserve judgement until I feel brave enough to actually try the translation for myself.

Yes, you really should.  I wouldn't dream of criticizing something I hadn't even played. I also don't understand why you would have to be "brave" to try our relocalization.  The original is always going to be there, and you aren't avoiding sniper fire in Afghanistan.

So feel free to ignore me (I actually fully expect you to, you must have responded to these sorts of comments hundreds of times by now).

I can assure you, all further questions of this nature will be ignored

I do have one question I'd love for you to respond to, though: How many Japanese characters did FFVII have?

Luksy will have to answer this. as I don't know.  I recall the English version had text around the same length as Return of the King.

I wonder if we could Kickstart a fund to have Alexander O Smith do a proper translation...

I sincerely doubt his relocalization would be all that much better than ours, despite the fact he is a professional.  That's not being big headed, it's just a fact that we've done a very good job, and some errors take an enormous amount of research and playthroughs.  I doubt he'd do a perfect job.  He didn't on FF8 by a long chalk (the ending boss battle dialogue is beyond rubbish). He'd do things better than us - but also things worse than us.

 

[Ver Greeneyes]

Except that this is a fragment from the ENEMY called Bomb, which the Reunion Database notes.

I'm curious, was it a conscious choice to use "Bomb's Fragment" rather than "Bomb Fragment"? The former sounds a bit odd, like it's a fragment belonging to (a) Bomb, rather than a fragment of a Bomb. I could see it working in a sentence ("Here, have a Bomb's Fragment") but on its own it looks strange. Maybe that's just me.