[FF7PC-98] The Reunion (OLD THREAD, SAVED FOR POSTERITY)

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You mean reunion in Niblheim,caledor...?

Also, not sure Sep did anything. (I am not using the other titles remember, only FF7 because it was intended to be a standalone game).  Cloud states he created the illusion.  It wasn't sep.

Even though this is using the titles, it will prob explain the original chronology.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Final_Fantasy_VII/Timeline

Can someone look through that, peel away the crap (the sequels and prequels) and present the original game time line?
 
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Ah but remember a piece of Sephiroth was inside Cloud that was what the battle after Safer was him trying to destroy his mind and claim dominance over his body.  It is also heavily implied who do you think was talking inside his head the whole time.  It wasn't Jenova it was actually Sephiroth calling him to come to him.  This is also supported by Hojo as when he asked him the question at costa del sole when he said ever felt like you where being called to somewhere (or something of that nature).  Also Sephiroth even told him he was a puppet meaning he is the one pulling his strings also supported when he was trying to make Cloud kill Aerith.  However he managed to restrain himself thanks to his companions snapping him back to reality.  When his original plan failed thats when Sephiroth took action.
 
The person calling to him in his head was actually Cloud.  Himself.  Asking him to wake up... as far as we can see anyway.  Hence "This is more than a reactor " "WAKE UP!"

It is also clearer when he mentions the fall of the bridge.  It is himself talking "You got away with it that time.  Just grazed your knees".  Later he tells the story of the bridge and says the same thing.,

Sephiroth is not inside Cloud's head.

The reason Hojo asks him if he feels compelled to go to a certain place is because Jenova cells heavily influence those with them to go to the Reunion.  Like the guys in cloaks.  Sephiroth through Jenova are kind of summoning him, but it is the cells themselves that make this possible.  I don't think Sep is the one talking to him.

Can that be explained?

From what the dialogue suggests, Cloud is in conflict with his real self during the game, and talks to himself.  Is there any confirmation on this?
 
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I actually found evidence it is a comdination of how his idea past came to be.  I actually beg to differ as Jenova's dialog is in the same background as is the other times it is used which is also being controlled by Sephiroth.  Plus this contradicts the first time this is done namely in the reactor.  The voice tells him that is isn't a normal reactor which is something the real Cloud does not know.  I found it on the wiki but Sephiroth does have something to do with his mind and what he thinks it is.

In fact, these events did not occur as Cloud describes; rather, they are an amalgamation of Cloud's actual past (as a member of the Shinra army who failed to enter SOLDIER) along with his friend Zack Fair's own past, mixed with memories gleaned from Tifa's mind, created out of a combination of shame, Jenova cells and manipulation by Sephiroth
 
The actual translation does not say "normal reactor" (the original game translation is wrong), it says lit something like "Wake up. This is more than a reactor remember?", and is referring to the one at Nibl which was used for experiments and the Jenova project.  Cloud is remembering what happened at Nibl.  It's Cloud's subconscious that you see during the game, that is conflicting with the fake memories.
 
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gotcha also here is a line of dialoge that Cloud states himself that Sephiroth is messing with his memories through Jenova cells exerting contol over him to some degree.  Cloud: You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For better or for worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with the Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will, and my own weaknesses are what created me.

Unless this to is said wrong then disregard but if not here it is if it helps.
 
I think Sephiroth is able to mess with Cloud and control him to the extent that he does because he controls Jenova's cells (not just the ones in his own body, but all the ones he comes within range of). Jenova's cells are also inside Cloud, and so Sephiroth is able to able to influence him and take advantage of his confused state (which in and of itself was created by the power struggle between Cloud and the cells infused into him).
 
gotcha also here is a line of dialoge that Cloud states himself that Sephiroth is messing with his memories through Jenova cells exerting contol over him to some degree.  Cloud: You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For better or for worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with the Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will, and my own weaknesses are what created me.

Unless this to is said wrong then disregard but if not here it is if it helps.
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Yeah, I guess that is right.  But... Sephiroth's will is what helped create the OLD cloud (yeah confused him is the better word).  The person during the game is trying to make Cloud remember who he really is, and is the subconscious (which is why he is usually asleep when it happens and so forth).  It is the REAL cloud trying to get through.

{CLOUD}
“For better or worse,only the
  strong-willed are chosen.”{NEW}
“This is nothing to do with
  Jenova's Reunion,either.”{NEW}
“It's just that if the process is used
  on someone who's weak-willed,
  like me,they lose themselves.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“A man born from Jenova
  cells,Sephiroth's will,and
  his own weaknesses.”{NEW}
“That's… the {CLOUD}
  that you all knew.”


If you look through the game, every time the subconscious is speaking, it's trying to get Cloud to understand who he is.  At the reactor it is trying to make him remember what happened at Nibl, at church it is making him remember the bridge, at Junon it is making him realise that his story doesn't add up and to ask Tifa about it.  And at the honeybee manor it is asking him to sort his head out, and that he has issues.

It is always Cloud.  Also, at the Honeybee Manor he actually sees himself (it's obviously symbolic for US and he is not lit seeing a ghost) before the dialogue.

I can't remember other places he is at.  The shame of it is, this nuance to the storyline was missed because of a bad translation job.
 
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I remember the dialoge being what she was doing before the burning of Nibelhiem I take it this is translated wrong too?  That sounds about right then it was the way they kind of had it at first made it seem like it was the real Cloud then Sephiroth realizing his will wasn't holding out over Cloud so he said something to try to stop it.  It was stated though that Sephiroth was controlling everyone with his will who had Jenova cells as apparent when I believe Hojo stated such and when Cloud handed over the Black Materia to Sephiroth.  Sephiroth does have a something to do with his mind as he tried to destroy Cloud's own mind and take over his body.  This is also supported when he callaspes after the Safer fight and stated that he is laughing.
 
I am guessing that that control is greater when he is nearby.  Certainly the times from the flash back are just the real cloud trying to break through the illusion that has been created.

Which Niblheim dialogue?  I'll check.
 
was a little confused when you said which dialoge.  The one about Hojo was in the same place where Cloud handed over the Black Materia again.  The place where the weapons woke up if i'm not mistaken in the northern cave before the barrier.
 
Ok yeah, I will concede that. Sephiroth is manipulating those with Jenova cells into coming to the Reunion.  And has some sort of power over them.  But the Cloud dialogue thing is separate and not Sep :)

Hojo
“My genius provided the answer…
  It was Sephiroth.”{NEW}
“His will had not been dispersed
  into the Lifestream.”{NEW}
“He was manipulating the [copies].”

Also, Cloud explains that Sep has to be nearby for him to completely lose it.

Cave is a translation error as well.  It's actually Great Northern Cavity [and variants] (I've used Great Crater of the North for full).
 
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Right gotcha about the Cloud voice thing and glad to shed some light to your question about the script.  I believe it is Cloud is a normal person but Cloud believed otherwise but then given that he failed to be in soldier this damaged his persona.  That and that he was so ashamed to face everyone he couldn't visit anyone except maybe his mother.  I think this is what gave Sephiroth the edge he needed to help fabricate his memory of the incident.  So they go to Nibelhiem as stated before Cloud was ashamed of not making his dream come true.  The events of Nibelhiem move on however in the non-fragmented version Cloud shakes of Sephiroth's stab to his chest.  Gains strength over the greif of losing his mother and Tifa getting cut.  Pulls the sword out and lifts it along with Sephiroth in the air then tosses him over the rail to the Mako pit.  However Sephiroth having a willpower stronger then most was still very much alive though most assumed he was dead.  Hojo salvages the situation by collecting Zax with Cloud and possible rebuilding the Nibelhiem town to continue doing experiments on them.  Zax manages to find a way to break out during the feeding process when the Shin-Ra employee opens the tank to give them food.  Zax knocks him out and takes a spare uniform from a closet and gives it to Cloud and puts it on him.  He managed to make it out and then hitch a ride to Midgar.  However the soldiers eventually caught up to them and after an apparent brief battle Zax is shot and killed.  Then the soldiers ignore Cloud then the scene with Zax and Cloud happen where Cloud gets the Buster Sword and tells him he is the proof of his existance his "My living legacy".  Now when Tifa meets Cloud again at the train station Tifa thinks she only last saw him before he left for Midgar when actually it was five years ago when the Nibelhiem incident happened. This is due to Cloud never showing himself out of shame.  So when Cloud responds he is recalling the events that where manipulated by Sephiroth to some degree to make him seek it out.  The other reason is that Cloud was traumatised by the events during Nibelhiem and his desire to be a soldier hero like Sephiroth so he accepted the part partially made any other factors and himself.

Wow I think my head is spinning for trying to make it sound right.  I hope I explained it a little better and this makes more sense.  Sorry to go off like that but I think that is how it weant given what I know now.
 
The problem is Tifa doesn't suppose 7 years in that other dialogue, it's stated as a fact (luksy may need to look at that again).  "Actually is had been 7 years".

Cloud didn't pull sword out either, but that's a minor quibble.  :P

Remember, I need explanations that don't use any of the sequels , prequel material.  I am going to look over the full chronology soon and get a perfect answer on everything.  We are debating story points here that have likely been clearly explained somewhere by the writers.
 
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I don't believe I did.  The one with Zax happen in the game.  I just used the extra dialogue because it wasn't added but the scene did still happen they just didn't feel the need to add dialogue before he died.  All the rest happened in the game aswell.  The scene with Zax happens after you go down to the basement after returning from the lifestream.  It was only stated as fact because at the time according to her he wasn't there.  However in the scenes following this is proven false and she actually acknowledges it stating so you where there you came to rescue me.  At this point it is now confirmed that it actually been five years.
 
Ah, now that makes sense...  but she knows the incident was 5 years ago.  It's the part on the railway station that she mentions 7 years. That's the part that feels weird.  Why would she not know the difference between 5 and 7?
 
I think that at this time she didn't know that Cloud was in the soldier uniform so she draw from his last day in the town.  I think this part is also in the lifestream as well isn't it?  I believe it was before the scene where they found out that he was one of the infantry men.
 
You mean reunion in Niblheim,caledor...?
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Yeah. Cloud remembers having seen Tifa five years before of course. The point is that he tells her that so nonchalantly cause he thinks she should remember too, thinking of himself has Zack. And when he's found by her in Midgar he's in SOLDIER uniform, the one that Zack made him wear before escaping from the Shinra mansion. Basically to Cloud everythink makes sense cause he was beside Zack the whole time, but Tifa obviously can't explain why he knows everything about Nibelheim AND at the same time states he was the SOLDIER sent there.

And yes, Sephiroth never did anything to Cloud. It's the combination of the trauma of Zack's death, the Jenova cells infused into him, his dreams and his weak personality (he would have never faced Tifa again if it meant to tell her he failed to enter SOLDIER) the catalysts for his mental breakdown. Basically he manages to create a fake persona that makes up for his every failure or trauma. Sephiroth controls Cloud later in the game, using his confused state and his power over the Jenova cells inside him to push him over the edge.

Long story short, Tifa thinks it's seven years cause Cloud head was covered by a helmet the whole time being a shinra infantryman, Cloud thinks it's five years cause he remembers having seen her in Nebelheim and has no shame in saying that cause he thinks he was Zack. The only thing that could not make sense is that Tifa actually sees Cloud in the reactor, when he "saves" her shortly before throwing Sephiroth in the Lifestream, but since Tifa faints moments after that she might have tought of that event as the manifestation of her delusions due to their promise.
 
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Wiki sums it up nice actually.  :P

It is revealed that Cloud was not accepted into SOLDIER, and that the dark-haired SOLDIER in Sephiroth's memory pictures was Aerith's first love and Cloud's best friend, Zack Fair. Cloud had been present during the incident at Nibelheim, but as a lower-level Shinra guard in a unit commanded by Zack and Sephiroth, and kept his identity hidden from Nibelheim's townsfolk, as he was ashamed of failing to join SOLDIER. After Sephiroth's massacre, Zack, Tifa, and Cloud had all confronted him. Tifa and Zack were defeated, but Cloud was able to stab Sephiroth and throw him into the Lifestream flowing below the town's Mako reactor, carrying with him Jenova's head. Rather than dying, however, Sephiroth's mind was crystallized in Mako, where he could influence Jenova "infected" subjects and reconstruct his body using Jenova's cells. Tifa was rescued and taken to Midgar, before Shinra arrived to cover up Sephiroth's massacre. Professor Hojo used Zack, Cloud and Nibelheim's other survivors to create the Sephiroth clones, performing the same enhancements given to SOLDIER members — a procedure which included Mako infusion - and injecting them with Jenova cells. A few weeks prior to the first events of the game, Zack broke free from his confinement, escaping the lab and taking Cloud with him. With Cloud still in a confused semi-conscious state from the experimentation, Zack headed for Midgar, telling Cloud about his entire life in SOLDIER and suggesting they become mercenaries, in attempts to get Cloud to come around. Zack was killed and Cloud was left for dead within sight of the city by Shinra soldiers. Cloud recovered, took Zack's sword and made his way to Midgar's Sector 7 train station, where Tifa found him. Cloud's own aspirations to SOLDIER and Zack's memories and stories combined, with the help of the Jenova treatment, to create a false external persona; a split personality. The voices that Cloud has been hearing through the game to this point is Cloud's actual, original persona, locked away along with his original memories. Shortly after these events, the mission with which the game opens took place.[28] Realizing all of this, Cloud is able to regain his sanity.
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And yes, I get the 7 years thing now. It's BEFORE she finds out the truth.   You are right.  :evil: She thinks it was 7 because she doesnt realise he was there all along 5 years ago.  Clever writers ;)  The last time she saw him was when he left the village to become a Soldier.
 
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