[FF8PC-Steam] Ragnarok Rebalancing Mod (v1.2.3 & v1.1b)

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Yes, the Zell card is still in Balamb, and it can be found anytime during disc 3 (while having access to Balamb), until the point of no return inside Lunatic Pandora.


It doesn't even matter how many of the library conversations the player has seen - the event at Balamb Hotel can always be triggered by talking to a woman that appears at Balamb entrance on disc 3, then talking to Ma Dincht, and then finally staying at the hotel with Zell in your party. The library visits only determine how much of the dialogue between Zell and the pigtail girl can be followed, and won't have an impact on the rewards at all.

All in all, the Zell card location was changed to give this particular sidequest a little more meaning, and also because I wanted to keep the Card Mod result (Hyper Wrist), which fits quite well, but just doesn't belong into the early-game, as early access to Strength+60% (30% in this mod, which is still good) is one of the most game-breaking elements in the base game.


Otherwise, thanks for the kind words, very encouraging :)
 
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Though I wanted to distance myself from FF8 after my very involved playthrough with probably dozens of pages of feedback on the mod, still couldn't help but keep an eye on this thread and the mod's development, and I have to say - it's almost unreal reading through your latest big update. I don't know if my rantings had any impact on what was to come but somehow once again you've managed to magically address just about every possible problem and/or improvement idea that ever came to my mind as I was playing. I seriously don't recall a single thing I commented on that hasn't been either fixed or improved. Ragnarok truly has become my dream-come-true version of the game, and I seriously can't wait to find the time to dive into it again. And maybe this time with less headache from trying to force a low level game, although I see you've already rectified the problems with that as well. Omega might still be undoable with a low level party though due to megiddo flame, lol.   

Thinking back, I never got back to you with regards to my final feedback and the final boss conversation, I suppose I moved on to other things in such a hurry that I never got to finish those thoughts, regrettably - I can no longer remember what I wanted to say. Something regarding the balance/difficulty side of things for sure though, considering the unusually dire conditions I beat the boss in, haha.

Anyhow super awesome to see you still perfecting the beat, as it were. Thanks for your continued support of the mod and making it the best it can be. The definitive version of FF8.
 
Hey, and welcome back.

While many of the points you made were already on my list back then, it was indeed your feedback that made me push some of the changes for the latest version, even though some of the results are different from what was initially planned. Maybe you remember me saying that I would like to keep the Stat Bonus Abilities until I find a replacement for them (some entirely new Abilities), but after thinking about what you said few times, I came to the conclusion that it's better to just remove them, even if there's no proper replacement for them yet.

The same can be said about Odin; it became more and more obvious that the mechanics are in need of a change, so he would no longer appear randomly at the beginning of battle without the player having a chance to stop this, resulting in forced EXP or missed opportunities to get a certain item from an enemy. The initial idea was to implement an option to toggle Odin on or off, but since I have never found a way to access the Odin variable through Deling Field editor, I came up with the item idea, which I think is a somewhat decent solution as well, even though if it means sacrificing Gilgamesh (for now).

So all in all, your feedback at least pushed me to find alternate, easier to implement solutions for various issues. Again, thanks for that, and also for your latest post in general. While this mod has evolved by quite a bit during the last couple of months, I still think there's room for improvement. For example, there's still the Aura spell, which is just toxic to this game's balance, and therefore should be replaced with a new spell, leaving just the rare Aura Stones, as said above. Other than that, using Darkside with max Strength, and hitting a major elemental weakness can now do tremendous amounts of damage to certain enemies, and sometimes negates any need for using spells and even Limit Breaks. Both issues will be addressed in a smaller update releasing soon.
 
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Glad to hear.

Yea I really like how you got around the Odin situation, reinforcing the theme of meaningfully limited resources, as I liked to think about it. It feels appropriate in the context of the mod. Aww, poor Gilgamesh, what a shame. I'll truly miss you randomly interrupting a tense lategame bossfight in order to deal 1k damage to them.

I do remember being in favor of even more heavily restricting Aura, to the point where it becomes a super limited external resource with a set number of stones that can be acquired in the game rather than a spell that can be drawn&junctioned. I think I had a supply of around a dozen for the ultimecia castle and I enjoyed the thought of having to ration and carefully select the times of use so much that I imposed the restriction on myself even though I did have a full stack of Auras from UW, so I didn't allow myself to use it via magic. Really cool to see you've been steering the mod in that direction.

Just talking about balance in terms of damage output, different abilities and whatnot gets me so excited man. It was one of the best things in the mod, seeing how different strategies measured up against each other and fighting bosses over and over using all the different tools at my disposal. And it was exciting precisely because you had balanced it so well, in my opinion. I imagine you lifting the damage cap just cranked the whole thing up to 11, I'm gonna have so much fun when I manage to get into this. But even without playing, it does indeed sound like Darkside has just become the most convenient way of delivering the hurts against enemies with elemental weaknesses. Why bother with limits, GF's and others when you can just attack and deal a similar amount of damage? Good idea to only have 1 darkside in the game. I don't think I ever commented on that but I did find it weird when there were multiple. At least now you have to make a choice. Well, I'm blabbing again and this time without even playing. My God.
 
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Yes, the Aura spell will be replaced soon, that much is certain. It should never be possible to gain such a powerful tool in masses, even if it's from an end-game super boss-like Ultima or Omega Weapon. I think the status in itself is comparable to Invincibilty in terms of value (if not even better) and there isn't a spell that grants Invincibility either, so I guess removing Aura as a spell would be adequate and help with balancing the late-game out.

As for the Aura replacement, I'll have to drop the idea for a high-level Water spell for now, as there aren't any animations that are entirely bug-free and compatible with Double/Triple at the same time. Will probably go with a strong support spell for the late-game instead, like one that combines the effects of Protect, Shell and Regen. Any other ideas, also in regards to spell name, feel free to share.

Darkside has become very powerful with the damage cap removed indeed. It feels a bit weird to finally have a way to inflict high and fast damage, without having to resort to spells and Limit Breaks, which often come with longer animations. I personally like it though, and I think the late-game needed that. But as said before, a few bosses take too much damage from it, due to having a major elemental weakness. A Bomb easily takes 60,000 HP with one hit, when being at max Strength and having Blizzaga junctioned to Elem-Atk, which I think is fine for minor enemies in general, but if you suddenly do 40,000 HP damage to one certain phase of the final battle, something is off and needs to be addressed. At the moment, I'm trying to make it so that 30,000 HP is the maximum damage that can be inflicted with Darkside on late bosses, which is about in line with the total damage that can be caused by a spell under Triple.

Anyway, progress is going well, so the Aura replacement and Darkside adjustments will be included soon.
 
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That new Fire Caverns boss fight.  :-D

I don't know what I was expecting but a bomb boss fight was definitely not it. I actually laughed out loud when I saw it pop out of the crater.


Was it an oversight to have Lvl Down work on it though? I killed it with a different method but I'm still not sure if it is the intended way to go about it or not.
 
Well, at the moment, it's not possible to add entirely new enemies to the game, so I thought why not creating unique versions of already existing enemies, just like a Bomb on steroids ;D


The intended methods for defeating this boss are as follows:

1. By equipping the Return Damage Ability before battle, keeping defenses low intentionally to take more damage, and letting the Bomb slowly kill itself by acting passively throughout the entire battle.

2. By trying to get the Sleep or Stop status to stick on the Bomb (which can be difficult because of its high Vitality and Spirit in this battle), then keep using attacks that ignore defense until the Bomb dies.

3. By using Irvine's Armor Shot with close to maxed out Strength and enforcing Crisis Level 4, which is just enough to kill the Bomb with one attack.

Using LV Down does not belong to the intended methods. Will make it immune to it, thanks.

Which method did you use by the way?
 
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I used #1 after realizing that it would only heal when I used an action against it.

My initial reaction was actually Kamikaze, which would've been rather ironic if it worked.


By the way, it might be good to have a save point before the boss. Those mandatory fights beforehand take a while and it wouldn't be fair to expect someone to figure out the boss on the 1st try.
 
Kamikaze is quite an interesting idea and might even work if it crits, and while user is at 9999 HP. I'll check that out.


Alright, will try to add a save possibility there, right before heading to the crater.
 
I don't know if this is a bug or a mechanic that I'm missing but Tiamat currently gets stuck at 0 Hp and doesn't actually die.

EDIT: You added Vengeance to Omega?! Now that's just mean.
 
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hey there, first of all i need to say WOW to your work man  8-) 8-)
and sorry for the question, but i saw something about the second time into the fire cavern, do you made the Zell speach and changed the monsters? And a new boss?
 
Thanks for the quick fix!

I'll have to give Omega more attempts another day though. Tried a couple today hoping to not get a death since I couldn't unlock resurrection with Tiamat bugged. My last attempt was going pretty smooth but got unlucky when he casted an Ultima right after Terra Break before I could get a turn to heal. Turn order feels really tight now since I'm assuming he's skipping less compared to the last version. I'm loving the challenge though.  :-P
 
@Divatox: Yes, it's a small extra sidequest that has been added for version 1.1.3.

It can be done after returning from space, and Zell will automatically mention it inside Ragnarok, to inform the player about it. There are 6 custom enemy encounters in total, and at the end, a custom Bomb boss battle can be attempted (it is recommended to save the game outside Fire Cavern before heading to the crater where Ifrit was once fought, as there's currently no save possibility right before this battle). 

It primarily serves as an opportunity to obtain an otherwise rare item that is required to get Zell's best weapon, and of course was also added for a little entertainment :)


@Yuey: Well observed. In fact, Omega Weapon's turn skip probability has been reduced to 0 for the latest version. In previous versions, it was 20%, which I thought is still too high for the strongest enemy in the game. Vengeance is a bit mean indeed, but then again, it can't touch your Auto-Abilities, such as Auto-Protect or Auto-Haste. Well, I hope you'll manage to defeat it next time.
 
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that is awesome dude  ;D ;D
how do you made this new event and boss? if may i ask.
 
Cactilio for creating all the custom battles; Deling to call for them and setting variables in regards to quest availability condition, repeat prevention etc; and Ifrit to create a battle specific AI script for Bomb (if battle = 1022, do this and that).

The hardest and most time consuming part is the work in Deling, as you need to learn that script language and use it yourself to put own ideas into practice. If you are really interested, you could start by comparing the non-modded Fire Cavern fields with the ones from this mod, to see what the differences are in detail (most changes are in the Director script). Always create backups in any case though, as things can be messed up easily if you are not familiar with changing field scripts.

Other information, for example about field variables, unused enemy encounter IDs, main story progress variables etc are helpful too. You can get a lot of this information from here:

https://wiki.ffrtt.ru/index.php/FF8
 
Thank you so much ^^
i asked because i only modded the usual game, didn´t put new battles
and with IFRIT when i tried to edit some enemies in the AI, in game the grafics became a big mess =/
 
Just finished another playthrough!

Had a ton of fun this time around as well. Plenty of great quality of life and misc changes in this version but for this post I mainly want to give my thoughts on some of the major changes and other notable points I came across during this playthrough.


Ultimecia’s Castle
Not having full stacks of Aura going into disc 4 this time around made for a vastly different experience. That plus the fact that you seemed to have touched up on most if not all of the bosses here has turned this into a worthy final dungeon in my opinion. I enjoyed all the fights and was even pleasantly surprised by a few of them. Trauma and Tiamat gave me a few game-overs that I wasn’t expecting and the fight with Ulimecia got dicey at a few points. All in all, I really enjoyed revisiting this part of the game after finding it really easy last time.

Oh, and I think Catoblepas’s Deadly Horn ability might be bugged. I have never seen it actually land a hit. I redid the battle a second time and he still missed every one he threw out.

General thoughts
The absolute highlight of this version has to be the buff to the ultimate weapons and the damage cap removal. Standard attacks hit noticeably harder now and doesn’t feel like a waste to use anymore. Darkside has become such a beast of an ability in the late-game as well. Funnily enough, I would’ve never imagined myself using Berserk as much as I did, but it’s amazingly good.

Limits, however, still maintain their dominance as the best way to deal damage (as they should be) but they’re no longer easily spammable without consequences. As a result, they actually feel special and exciting when you do get to use them.

I also ended up utilizing Bahamut and Eden much more than I did last time around.  I think they already broke the damage limit before but I just didn’t have the incentive to level and use them as much as I do now. It feels like you’ve really nailed a good balance for all the different avenues of dealing damage. Kudos.

Darkside
This might be a bit contentious but I would like to see a second Darkside being available. As it stands right now, there are mainly two ways to maximize physical’s damage potential: Darkside or Berserk. And as much as I made use of Berserk, I’m actually not a fan of the way it works. It’s very costly to lose control of a character and it’s something that I hesitate to use on tough battles because of that. More importantly, I feel like the loss of control goes directly against the essence of a turn-based RPG where being able to plan and react with your command abilities is a large part of the enjoyment.

In addition, I feel like a second Darkside would allow party compositions of two (or even three) physical attackers to be more viable. Right now, if you run two physical attackers you would want to run Darkside on one of them and Berserk on the other. I feel like being able to run two Darksides in this setup would lead to a more enjoyable and healthier gameplay experience. Now, if you want to run a party of three physical attackers (and I don’t see why this should be discouraged), the most optimal way to go about it would be to have two of them berserked and that just feels wrong and degenerative.

Berserk (and Mad Rush by extension) is great for plowing through regular battles but I don’t think relying on such a mechanic for boss fights should be encouraged. If necessary, I think nerfing Darkside a bit or making its health cost higher would be a fair trade to be able to have a second one.

Angel Wing
I usually don’t like using Angel Wing for the same reasons I don’t like Berserk. However, I think the new implementation of it is worse than the previous version from a pure damage perspective, even if the way it works is fundamentally better.

The reason I say this is because there is really only one reason why you would want to use an ability like Angel Wing in the first place: to do more damage per turn than you normally would without it. Otherwise, there’d be no point to give up control of your character. And I don’t think it accomplishes that currently.

I tried using it on a few occasions during this playthrough and I came across the same problems every time:


[list type=decimal]
[*]There are too many low level spells. The –ga spells, Pain, Water just doesn’t feel good when you get them. Yes, they still hurt but when you only get Meteor or Flare like once every 6-8 casts you start to wonder if you shouldn’t just triple cast them instead. I'm not 100% sure how the numbers compare but it doesn't feel like Angel Wing pulls ahead even without taking into account point #2.
[*]If a boss has any elemental properties, Angel Wing falls behind pretty handily. Boss has a weakness? You’re almost guaranteed to do more damage just manual triple casting the targeted weakness every turn. And obviously, if they are strong to or absorb any element(s), your total damage can go down drastically or even into the negatives (I tried it on Omega to much amusement.)
[/list]

I firmly believe that you should limit the spell pool to the non-elemental damage spells. I think that even if you lower the coefficient back to 3 but take away all the elemental spells, it would still be better than the current iteration. By the point when you unlock Angel Wing, you pretty much would never cast spells below Flare or Holy for damage anyways unless it’s to target a weakness.

Wall/Invincibility
I decided to try using Selphie more after neglecting her last time around. I never realized Wall gave Invincibility but I feel like the skill (and the buff) is a little cheap in general. As for the skill itself, I actually feel like it is better than Invincible Moon in its original form. While it might seem difficult to reliably count on Slots to keep the buff up, it’s actually pretty easy to pull off in practice by just doing it in long animation sequences like summons or certain Limits.

Now, I think the bigger issue I have with it lies in the Invincibility buff itself. I really dislike the idea of being able to avoid a fight mechanic completely. Ways to mitigate it, yes, but to completely negate a mechanic feels like it’s almost cheating the fight. Even heavily limiting its availability (as in the case of Hero/Holy War) doesn’t diminish its binary nature. It’s the kind of mechanic that either trivializes a fight if used or doesn’t have any value at all.

I would like to say that this is simply something that I don’t personally like. I think that it is completely fine as it is, with how limited you can use it, to keep it as an option for the player to choose to use or not.  With that said, if you do decide to change it, I think making it work as a damage reduction that stacks on top of Protect/Shell might be an option to keep it strong but not overly cheap.

Vit0
This is another rather minor issue that I have with Vit0’s current functionality much like with Invincibility. Vit0 was one of the more broken mechanics back in the original game and I think it’s actually in a really good spot balance-wise in this mod. This is basically something that I would like to see improved but I don’t think it is a big deal.

The issue I have with it is that it’s an all or nothing mechanic (like Invincibility and Aura.) In order to balance around this, you either have to make a boss have that much more health if they are susceptible to make up for the damage increase or you make it have such a low chance of applying that it might as well be immune. So the choice becomes: Is boss immune? If yes, then the mechanic is useless. If no, then you have a situation where there could be two wildly different experiences for the same fight. For example, if you set the chance to apply to be high, then obviously the boss has to be balanced around having Vit0 on. If the chance to apply is set to be extremely low to counteract its strength, then there could be a case where one player manages to apply it early on in a fight and have a much easier time compared to someone else who didn’t (even if they were casting meltdown the entire time.) This not only makes it difficult for the person doing the balancing but it also isn’t very enjoyable for the player to spend an entire battle trying to cast meltdown and having it not work.

If such a functionality can be implemented, I would love to see the status get a rework to be less potent but have an easier time applying. Maybe something like 50% or 25% reduced Vit/Spr with a limited duration so one would need to constantly reapply it in order to take advantage of the damage increase.
 
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Thanks again for your input, much appreciated.


I rechecked Catoblepas' Deadly Horn to make sure, and it sometimes even hit Irvine who had the highest Evade stat in my party (14%, which is already a high number for Evade in this game), so I guess you were just "unlucky" to not get hit by it. Its hit rate is lower than a regular physical attack, and has been already increased for the mod, but well, it should be fine to increase it by a few more points, so its potential will be seen more often.

As for a second Darkside ability, I'm not sure if it would be healthy to the physical vs magical damage balance. Physical damage output is actually in a good spot right now, due to Irvine's increased critical hit rate that comes from his weapons, Squall's R1 trigger, and Zell's high base Strength. When I run a party of all 3 of them, I usually put Darkside on Squall, attack with Irvine normally, getting quite many critical hits, and sometimes cast Berserk on Zell, and that feels quite satisfying most of the time. I would rather increase the newly introduced Ultimate Weapon bonus for Zell to push physical damage a little more - a second Darkside would be likely be too powerful, especially if you know about enemy weaknesses.

In regards to Angel Wing, I mostly agree with the points you made - I just wouldn't classify the -ga spells as low-level spells, and I don't think it's necessary that Angel Wing always beats Triple spells in terms of pure damage, as Angel Wing has the added bonus of not consuming spells from inventory and also shorter animations. Other than that, I realized that elemental spells are being used too often indeed, which limits its usefulness against quite many enemies. At the moment, the chance of Rinoa casting an elemental spell under Angel Wing is even 75%. This is not exactly what was planned and will be reduced to ~40% very soon. I don't want to remove them entirely, as the number of non-elemental spells is quite low in this game; it would be boring if she used only Meltdown, Flare, Meteor and Ultima. Also because elemental spells can hit an enemy's weakness, which can be quite satisfying as well (for example, when getting Holy against Griever).

Changing the way Invincibility and Vit 0 work would not be an easy thing to do, but I'll keep your ideas in mind for later. Would really love that too.
 
That's fair enough. I can see your points.

Anyways, I want to take this opportunity to thank you again for all the work you've put in and still continuing to do on making this amazing mod. I can't speak for anyone else but I had an absolute blast with my two playthroughs. I'm really glad I decided to revisit the game again after all this time and for accidentally stumbling upon your mod because I don't think I would've had as enjoyable of an experience as I did otherwise. I'll be looking forward to seeing what you have in store for future versions. Cheers!
 
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