Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)

[Kudistos Megistos]

Anyone willing to start? I say each country pick a straw, then nuke the shortest. Hopefully there will be many people there.  ;-)
If population control is the means the achieve the goal, then Pol Pot and Hitler are one of our time's biggest heroes.

I say we introduce communism to Africa and the Indian subcontinent. It's done wonders for the birth rate in China and Eastern Europe.

I also wonder what it would be like (not supporting a bias here, just pondering) if the whole government as a whole did not have any religion.

I just wonder how many things would be changed.

and how many things like this Koran burning could be avoided (seeing as our government leans to protect christian churches still [little bit of bias there, but not too much. Hope you can handle it ]) with an Atheist government.

Whoa, there! I agree that not being influenced by religion is necessary for a good government, but history has shown that it is nowhere near sufficient. There have been atheist governments only slightly less evil than the religious ones, and thanks to their countries' population and their superior technology and infrastructure, they've had a higher kill count.

No, secularism is just one step towards the creation of a good government.

 

[DLPB_]

America would never be at war with Islam, Mr Obama declared.

"It was not a religion that attacked us that September day. It was Al-Qaeda," he said

Errrr no, Mr. Obama.  It was a bunch of Muslims who found numerous justification within their holy book the Koran, and so, yes, religion was what attacked you. Had their been no Islam or religion, there would have been no attack.

I am tired of all this appeasement and lying.  They are absolutely terrified of Islam and yet still call it the Religion of Peace.   

The American law states clearly that an American has the right to certain freedoms which include burning flags, offending and burning books, yet Mr. Obama was speaking against it, and even the FBI were round to this guys house trying to stop him.  Had this been a bible (and plenty of those are burned), no one would have said a dicky bird!  Double standards yet again.

 

[The Seer of Shadows]

That "you have the right of free will" is, in this instance, just a pitiful excuse to do something unacceptable.

The right of freedom assumes that all human beings have some common sense - some extent of maturity.  Which, sadly, is simply untrue.

The Koran holds deep spiritual significance for many people, as does the Bible.  Burning them, just for the heck of agitation?  There already seems to be a conflict between certain domains of the two religions, and all this is going to do is add fuel to the fire.

 

[titeguy3]

This is a bit of a sensitive issue for me and I've shut up for long enough so far, so bear with me and please listen to my two cents:

America would never be at war with Islam, Mr Obama declared.

"It was not a religion that attacked us that September day. It was Al-Qaeda," he said

Errrr no, Mr. Obama.  It was a bunch of Muslims who found numerous justification within their holy book the Koran, and so, yes, religion was what attacked you. Had their been no Islam or religion, there would have been no attack.

I am tired of all this appeasement and lying.  They are absolutely terrified of Islam and yet still call it the Religion of Peace.   

The American law states clearly that an American has the right to certain freedoms which include burning flags, offending and burning books, yet Mr. Obama was speaking against it, and even the FBI were round to this guys house trying to stop him.  Had this been a bible (and plenty of those are burned), no one would have said a dicky bird!  Double standards yet again.

A) I agree with what you said earlier about religion being the offspring of man, and thusly flawed in and of itself

B) I believe the term you wanted was "there would have been no attack"

C) It's been my understanding that Al-Qaeda (which is a name often used all-encompassingly to multiple extremist factions in the middle east), while claiming their actions in the name of "Islam", act solely for the purpose of acquiring political power and invoking fear in the middle east. I'm quite certain that even if Islam never existed, corrupt, power-hungry factions like this would still exist and simply claim their actions in the name of some other convenient excuse.
Claiming that this violence would never have happened had the religion not existed contradicts the statement I said I agreed with in point A. Religion isn't the source of mankind's evil, it just has the potential to be a manifestation of it.

D) What would you propose Obama should have said? "f*ck Islam, those f*ckers, let's kill 'em all! F*ckin' A-Rabs! [/redneck accent]"? What he said was perfectly reasonable, and he wasn't trying to appease jack sh*t. He was trying [commendably] to prevent the unjustified antagonization of all Muslims in general by the American people, as it's that same type irrational antagonization and fear-mongering that led to acts of history like the Holy Crusades (all 9 of 'em), or the Spanish Inquisition, or the Holocaust. Not all Muslims are Al-Qaeda the same way that not all Christians are members of the KKK or the Nazi Party. To claim anything along those lines is just...f*cking retarded.

 

[Kudistos Megistos]

Although religion is a creation of man, I think Seifer is right in what he says.

9/11 was a suicide bombing. Those people would not have killed themselves if they had not believed in a religion that promises death is not the end. Al-Qaeda needed religion for this. This brings me onto point two:

Religion has a unique power to enable evil. Firstly, religion (or the Abrahamic religions, at least) claims greater authority for its moral proclamations because it claims that its laws are made by God. They are completely unquestionable because they are from a perfect, omniscient being who not only is always right, but decides what it right according to his whims.

Secondly, religious people often say "hurr atheism has the potential for the greatest evil because atheists don't fear punished after death for doing evil things". I say religion has the potential for the greatest evil because it can promise rewards after death for doing evil things. REWARDS OF 72 RAISINS! Therefore, religion can take away the greatest impediment for doing crazy sh*t. Atheists may not fear what comes after death, but they at least fear death itself. If you believe in an afterlife in which you will be rewarded for killing Americans and Jews, then when your moral intuitions have been overcome by belief in divine proclamation, there's nothing to stop you from killing.

BTW, the fact that man created religion does not mean that man controls it. religion is like Frankenstein's monster: its creator has completely lost control of it and it does its own thing. Religion takes on a life of its own and comes from the unconscious instincts and assumptions of humans. In fact, there's a good case for saying that it isn't created by humans at all, or at least not by conscious humans. In any case, it can very well be said to be the source of much evil.

PS. I think Obama should have said "f*ck Islam" just for the lulz. He's pretty boring, so that would have livened things up.

I'd also be interested to see whether people would stop calling him a Muslim if he said that. I doubt it. ;D

 

[DLPB_]

Yes I corrected the "their" to "there" elsewhere and forgot to do it here, not that it matters.  I don't come on forums to make sure every word is perfect.

There is no question at all that the suicide bombers get their authority from the Koran.  This is a fact.  Not only does it instruct followers to kill unbelievers, it also instructs that great rewards of v.irgins await.  So it is rewarding death as long as it is a "holy war", and unfortunately the Koran allows pretty much anything to be made a holy war if the target is not Islamic.

My problem with Obama was not that he and the others haven't come out and said "look Islam is a problem" which they should have done by now.  In this particular episode, it was the fact that he told American's that it was un-American to offend, burn books etc.  Which is sheer nonsense because it is a fundamental right in the American constitution.  It was very hypocritical of him.  To send FBI to the guys house and go so mad over it, only made him look completely out of touch with what the constitution allows and what freedom of expression is.

These guys aren't stupid, they know full well how bad and how dangerous Islam is, but they have cooked up this little game of appeasement in the hope that it will go away because they are afraid of what the result might be (Bush was just as bad, he came out with this whole Islam is peaceful crap too).  Perhaps it will, but history has shown that these tactics seldom, if ever work; if they don't...  well we are in for a lot of sh*t.

http://www.dianawest.net/Home/tabid/36/EntryId/1274/LTC-Allen-West-for-Congress.aspx

“Let me say this. And this – I don’t care about being popular or whatever. The first thing you got to do is you got to study and understand who you’re up against. And you must realize that this is not a religion that you’re fighting against. You’re fighting against a theo-political belief system and construct. You’re fighting against something that’s been doing this thing since 622 A.D. Since the 7th Century. Thirteen hundred and eighty-eight years.
You want to dig up Charles Martel and ask him why he was fighting the Muslim Army at the Battle of Tours in 732? You want to ask the Venetian fleet at Lepanto why they were fighting a Muslim fleet in 1571? You want to ask the Christian, I mean the Germanic and Austrian Knights why they were fighting at the Gates of Vienna in 1683? You want to ask people what happened at Constantinople and why today it’s called Istanbul because they lost that fight in 1453.
You need to get into the Koran. You need to understand their precepts. You need to read the Surah. You need to read the Hadithe. And then you can really understand this is not a perversion. They are doing exactly what this book says…” (applause, lots of it)


Until the leadership of the United States is willing to say that, we will just keep on chasing our tails.

Secondly, religious people often say "hurr atheism has the potential for the greatest evil because atheists don't fear punished after death for doing evil things". I say religion has the potential for the greatest evil because it can promise rewards after death for doing evil things. REWARDS OF 72 RAISINS! Therefore, religion can take away the greatest impediment for doing crazy sh*t. Atheists may not fear what comes after death, but they at least fear death itself. If you believe in an afterlife in which you will be rewarded for killing Americans and Jews, then when your moral intuitions have been overcome by belief in divine proclamation, there's nothing to stop you from killing.

Nice to see someone gets this totally.

 

[Opine]

C) [...]
D) [...]

^ Those.

REWARDS OF 72

Q. Where are my virgins?
A. Here are your raisins!

 

[Marc]

Regarding most of the opinions in this thread, I'd reccomend everybody watches the BBC documentary The Power Of Nightmares.

Some parts are somewhat dry but it is by far one of the best take on the subject I've seen.

Here's a playlist where the first 6 videos were part 1 to 6 of the documentary :http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5BF86B79B4D1425E&playnext=1&v=Vt-FyuuWlWQ

Very interesting parallel betwen US and Islamic fundamentalism and how some individuals use it to push their views, emcompassing 9/11.

 

[DLPB_]

Of course the BBC is a left wing organisation which is completely crippled by Political Correctness.  Just because some people like to use it to peddle their agenda, does not make this any less real.

 

[Bosola]

Does anyone remember the 1990s, when leftists said the exact same thing, only this time they insisted the BBC was a tool of the Conservative Party? Remember that season they did asking if "White, working class Britain is disappearing"?

I like the idea that the Right is dreadfully underrepresented by the media, though.

The far Left and far Right have always been paranoid, though. Anyone who insists OMG U R SO BLIND ITS A CONSPIRACY ZOMFG!!! is usually not worth paying too much attention to.

 

[Marc]

Of course the BBC is a left wing organisation which is completely crippled by Political Correctness.  Just because some people like to use it to peddle their agenda, does not make this any less real.

Make what real ?  Muslim extremists ?

The IRA was as bad as the Muslim extremists back in the day.  Or probably the Crusaders.  And most likely most of Africa's "revolutionary fighters".  Most cultures, Western or otherwise, have their extremists.  It's just a matter of how big does their voice resonate within the general population.

As to the documentary, was it biased ?  Most likely to an extent.  But almost everything I hear in North American media on "Al Qaeda" also is.  Take a little bit from both sides and you're probably not far off from the truth.

I reccommend you watch the documentary if you haven't Seifer.  It talks about American politics just as much as Middle East's politics.  I think you'd find it interesting.

 

[guitar_dudester91]

I don't even wanna join this conversation. I learned quite a bit though.....

 

[DLPB_]

The IRA was as bad as the Muslim extremists back in the day.  Or probably the Crusaders.  And most likely most of Africa's "revolutionary fighters".  Most cultures, Western or otherwise, have their extremists.  It's just a matter of how big does their voice resonate within the general population.

You have just spoken 2 big myths there.  Firstly, the crusades came about BECAUSE of Islamic oppression and aggression.  Secondly, the IRA did not blow itself up in suicide attacks, and did not have a war against UNBELIEVERS or Jews or Christians (which is what the Muhammad instructs his followers to do).  Also, you may have noticed...  the IRA are no longer terrorising people, and they never attacked world targets.  The IRA is in no way comparable to Islamic problems.  The IRA also didn't kill thousands upon thousands upon thousands since it was founded, unlike Islam.  The IRA was not based on a religious book which brainwashes.  It was a political struggle not a political AND religious struggle.

Islam rewards those who kill their targets in its afterlife.  Thus there is no inhibition to Muslims whereas the IRA valued their own lives.  Osama Bin Laden said it best "The USA loves life, we love death, that is the difference between us."  You can't compare the ideology of IRA to the Koran.

I suggest you watch this: 

You are comparing chalk with cheese.

 

[titeguy3]

[unsupported claims]

Ah, okay, it seems you don't actually know what you're talking about which actually relieves me quite a bit. You should take a course in religion or theology that requires you to read through a translated version of the Qu'ran (or at least parts of it) and break it down. The notion that it says in the Qu'ran that murderers are rewarded in the afterlife is equivalent to the notion that it says in the Bible that homosexuals go to hell. You understand that these interpretations seem to be the result of people trying to skew the meanings of passages to support their preconceived ideas once you actually take the time to study the text as opposed  to taking what you hear at face value.

 

[DLPB_]

[unsupported claims]

Ah, okay, it seems you don't actually know what you're talking about which actually relieves me quite a bit.

Congrats on being the first person in this debate to flame bait and take the argument to the person.  :mrgreen:  As for what you said, they aren't comparable at all. 

"If you murder you will be cast into the fires of hell [by god]"  is not the same as

 “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).

or as

Ishaq:240     "The Jews are a nation of liars.... The Jews are a treacherous, lying, and evil people."

The one in the bible is a punishment by god when you are dead, the one in the Koran is Muhammad instructing living followers to take up arms against non Muslims.

Are you really going to argue that they are the same thing?  Do you think it is a coincidence that there are so many wars and civil wars where Islam is a large minority or a majority?  Do you think it is a coincidence that the only world religion still killing people significantly (and nearly always) is Islam?  Do you think it is pure coincidence?

Do you?

How many more years of Islamic trouble will convince you?  Will it take a civil war or a terrorist attack on home soil every day?  Will it take another 1000 years of trouble with this same religion before people realise that this religion is different because the Koran is different.  That it is more dangerous because of how it instructs and the way it leaves little in these passages up to nice interpretations.

Islam is different.  It always has been and if the Koran remains unchanged, it always will be.  You can't make Mein Kampf a good book or Nazism a good ideology.

 

[old boss]

I just want to correct u the qu'ran isn't written by mouhamad (pbuh) it is the saying of Allah u mistook it for haddith which is mouhamad's saying

 

[DLPB_]

I just want to correct u the qu'ran isn't written by mouhamad (pbuh) it is the saying of Allah u mistook it for haddith which is mouhamad's saying

 You are obviously a Muslim (hence the pbuh).  The Koran is the doctrine set down by Muhammad which you believe is the word of Allah.

But it isn't.  It is Mr. Muhammad who wrote the Koran.  The koran is a book.  It is a man made book.   I am sorry to break this to you, but all religion is man made.  There isn't a shred of credible testable proof that any of it is divine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27an

Islam holds that the Qur’an was revealed from God to Muhammad  orally through the angel Jibrīl (Gabriel) over a period of approximately twenty-three years, beginning in 610 CE, when he was forty, and concluding in 632 CE, the year of his death.[2][6][7]  Muslims further believe that the Qur’an was memorized, recited and written down by Muhammad's companions after every revelation dictated by Muhammad.

 Not that that even matters.  The basics of this argument are that the Koran has many quotes telling followers what to do to non followers.