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Livesey
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Yeah... That's what I meant my bad guys was half asleep while writing that. I really should double check what I write when I'm sleepy. 
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Setosith
Guest
I'm very mixed on the subject. I'd LOVE a remake...provided they dont change things....which we've all seen CC....They WILL.
Theyve just changed so much about it...they'd probably add Genesis and more Zack seens and change dialouge to be PG appropriate....which is horrible...imagine barret saying things like "I'm gonna kick your butt!" ....now THATS gangsta.
I don't have any clue how they would go about making cloud dress as a woman, and somehow smuggle his buster sword and normal clothes into Don Corneo's with up to date graphics....back in 97 it was ok to do a little spin and vuala!....But I don't think that would fly very well with new graphics.
I was extremely excited to see a prequel comming out where you play as Zack. It filled me with joy....but when I played it I realised how different my image of zack was from square's. I pictured him to act more like Angeal...just without all the honor and dreams....I thought CC would revolve more around the Wutai war....but no we get to fight 4 wutai soldiers and thats somehow a war?....anyone see the full scale epic battle in dirge of cerberus? THATS a war....and it was just one battle.
CC should have focused more on the war...It should have been dark, morbid, and sad. Instead its like...."yay we're goin to war!!!" It's almost like Shinras just a big highschool >.>
There should have been tanks...corpses....Zack suppose to be a badass...not Sora with black hair. I mean come on! ITS SHINRA!!! This is the one game where they could've been as ruthless as they wanted...
And I know we're talking about a remake here and not CC...but these are my reasons for being scepticle. I've seen their trend....Squaresoft was awesome and origional...square enix is all about flashy bubbly anime graphics....I KNOW theyre gonna add and subtract and theyll definatley screw up the voice acting....
On the other hand I'd love to see FF7 as a hack and slash rather than turn based. If they did that....maybe hit R1 or R2 to switch characters? Thatd be awesome. But if it means creating a whole new generation of FF7 fans that arent really FF7 fans....then no...I'd rather just dream about it.
When an artist creates something it no longer belongs to them...it belongs to us...the world lol. And square doesn't give two shits about what the fans think. Thats why I love KOEI.
Squares kinda like the game version of Metallica....they use to be AWESOME....then they started sucking and sueing their fans XD
Theyve just changed so much about it...they'd probably add Genesis and more Zack seens and change dialouge to be PG appropriate....which is horrible...imagine barret saying things like "I'm gonna kick your butt!" ....now THATS gangsta.
I don't have any clue how they would go about making cloud dress as a woman, and somehow smuggle his buster sword and normal clothes into Don Corneo's with up to date graphics....back in 97 it was ok to do a little spin and vuala!....But I don't think that would fly very well with new graphics.
I was extremely excited to see a prequel comming out where you play as Zack. It filled me with joy....but when I played it I realised how different my image of zack was from square's. I pictured him to act more like Angeal...just without all the honor and dreams....I thought CC would revolve more around the Wutai war....but no we get to fight 4 wutai soldiers and thats somehow a war?....anyone see the full scale epic battle in dirge of cerberus? THATS a war....and it was just one battle.
CC should have focused more on the war...It should have been dark, morbid, and sad. Instead its like...."yay we're goin to war!!!" It's almost like Shinras just a big highschool >.>
There should have been tanks...corpses....Zack suppose to be a badass...not Sora with black hair. I mean come on! ITS SHINRA!!! This is the one game where they could've been as ruthless as they wanted...
And I know we're talking about a remake here and not CC...but these are my reasons for being scepticle. I've seen their trend....Squaresoft was awesome and origional...square enix is all about flashy bubbly anime graphics....I KNOW theyre gonna add and subtract and theyll definatley screw up the voice acting....
On the other hand I'd love to see FF7 as a hack and slash rather than turn based. If they did that....maybe hit R1 or R2 to switch characters? Thatd be awesome. But if it means creating a whole new generation of FF7 fans that arent really FF7 fans....then no...I'd rather just dream about it.
When an artist creates something it no longer belongs to them...it belongs to us...the world lol. And square doesn't give two shits about what the fans think. Thats why I love KOEI.
Squares kinda like the game version of Metallica....they use to be AWESOME....then they started sucking and sueing their fans XD
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DLPB_
Guest
Barrett never swore all the time in the original Japanese... that was added by the English localiser. So expect a better translation to change him. He was not meant to be a "gangsta". They may tone Cid down too and other things but VII was never intended to be the way it ended up in English.
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Setosith
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I personally cannot stand online FF games being numbered entries into the series. They should be named FFOnline 1 & 2.
I AGREE
Barrett never swore all the time in the original Japanese... that was added by the English localiser. So expect a better translation to change him. He was not meant to be a "gangsta". They may tone Cid down too and other things but VII was never intended to be the way it ended up in English.
True....still...I think you understand the fine points of my argument lol. Its GOING to get changed. And I'm not cool with that...not that they need my approval lol.
As for Barret being "gangsta" There arent many things in this world more gangster-stereotype than a big black guy with a machine gun strapped to his arm who also lives in the ghetto..and flips the bird to the man by blowing up parts of a city >.>.....IMO lol. Perhaps terrorist is a better word but I was referring to his personality...which..sure...probably different in japanese...I'm not worried about japanese voice acting though...they don't suck.....I'm worried about the cheesey english...it just doesnt feel real when they talk.
I'm mostly worried about story changers though. For example in CC it really bugged me when Genesis showed up in the Nibelheim reactor... and they made it seem like Genesis is responsible for Seph snapping. It bugs me enough as it is that theyd add two more one winged angels in a prequel....I mean I like them just fine...Angeals awesome. Genesis not so much...but Sephiroth was suppose to be one of a kind i thought. I'm rambling now.
But those are the main reasons I'm against it. The only reasons I have for wanting a remake are...I wanna see the game in new graphics like everyone else...and I'd like to play it with a different battle system. But thats pretty much it.
I AGREE
Barrett never swore all the time in the original Japanese... that was added by the English localiser. So expect a better translation to change him. He was not meant to be a "gangsta". They may tone Cid down too and other things but VII was never intended to be the way it ended up in English.
True....still...I think you understand the fine points of my argument lol. Its GOING to get changed. And I'm not cool with that...not that they need my approval lol.
As for Barret being "gangsta" There arent many things in this world more gangster-stereotype than a big black guy with a machine gun strapped to his arm who also lives in the ghetto..and flips the bird to the man by blowing up parts of a city >.>.....IMO lol. Perhaps terrorist is a better word but I was referring to his personality...which..sure...probably different in japanese...I'm not worried about japanese voice acting though...they don't suck.....I'm worried about the cheesey english...it just doesnt feel real when they talk.
I'm mostly worried about story changers though. For example in CC it really bugged me when Genesis showed up in the Nibelheim reactor... and they made it seem like Genesis is responsible for Seph snapping. It bugs me enough as it is that theyd add two more one winged angels in a prequel....I mean I like them just fine...Angeals awesome. Genesis not so much...but Sephiroth was suppose to be one of a kind i thought. I'm rambling now.
But those are the main reasons I'm against it. The only reasons I have for wanting a remake are...I wanna see the game in new graphics like everyone else...and I'd like to play it with a different battle system. But thats pretty much it.
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xLostWingx
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DLPB I am going to try to say this without being offensive.
People played FFVII with the bad localization and grew to love it. Why is it such a vexxing flaw then? Personally, I cringe when I see text changes however "more accurate" they may be. What if I was on some island and someone told me about Peanut Butter and Jelly sandwiches except they were made with Almond Butter. I ate Almond Butter and Jelly sandwiches all my life and thought they were the greatest thing ever. Then someone from the mainland came and said "that i wrong, you are suppose to eat Peanut Butter and Jelly Sandwiches." Should I enjoy Almond Butter and Jelly sandwiches any less? Are they necessarily inferior to the intended sandwich? Whatever laws exist in FFVII, millions of people played it as it was, and love it because of what it was. Altering it 15 years later to be more faithful to the true intentions of the creators is not necessarily an improvement. I know it is your opinion, so I'm glad you enjoy better translation. But if Barret went around saying "Hi Ho the darrio" as a catchphrase and I played the game and loved it even though he was suppose to say "That giant pizza in the sky", most people would probably prefer him to say the incorrect, but initially meaningful phrase, than the after-the-fact accurate phrase. You probably already know all this, but I figured I'd say something to get your thoughts.
People played FFVII with the bad localization and grew to love it. Why is it such a vexxing flaw then? Personally, I cringe when I see text changes however "more accurate" they may be. What if I was on some island and someone told me about Peanut Butter and Jelly sandwiches except they were made with Almond Butter. I ate Almond Butter and Jelly sandwiches all my life and thought they were the greatest thing ever. Then someone from the mainland came and said "that i wrong, you are suppose to eat Peanut Butter and Jelly Sandwiches." Should I enjoy Almond Butter and Jelly sandwiches any less? Are they necessarily inferior to the intended sandwich? Whatever laws exist in FFVII, millions of people played it as it was, and love it because of what it was. Altering it 15 years later to be more faithful to the true intentions of the creators is not necessarily an improvement. I know it is your opinion, so I'm glad you enjoy better translation. But if Barret went around saying "Hi Ho the darrio" as a catchphrase and I played the game and loved it even though he was suppose to say "That giant pizza in the sky", most people would probably prefer him to say the incorrect, but initially meaningful phrase, than the after-the-fact accurate phrase. You probably already know all this, but I figured I'd say something to get your thoughts.
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DLPB_
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I don't think anyone has the right to take someone elses work and mangle it. There is a difference between making Barrett sound gruff and slangy... the way he should be, and taking it further and modelling him after B.A. Baracus.
The latter is clearly unprofessional and wrong. It takes a writer's work and degrades it. You may like Barrett to sound like a gangsta, but I think it is a dumb caricature which has butchered someone elses work. The localisation that I and Luksy have made (and that any decent localiser would make) maintains barrett's aggressive and slangy character, without the need to make him a silly rip off of a famous black guy. In fact I'd say 90% of the dialogue is v similar if not the same.
What you like, does not enter into it. And nostalgia is not a good reason. If we go down that route, we may as well keep every mistake. People should break free of blind fanboyism and nostalgia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition
If I want B.A. Baracus I will watch this>
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The latter is clearly unprofessional and wrong. It takes a writer's work and degrades it. You may like Barrett to sound like a gangsta, but I think it is a dumb caricature which has butchered someone elses work. The localisation that I and Luksy have made (and that any decent localiser would make) maintains barrett's aggressive and slangy character, without the need to make him a silly rip off of a famous black guy. In fact I'd say 90% of the dialogue is v similar if not the same.
What you like, does not enter into it. And nostalgia is not a good reason. If we go down that route, we may as well keep every mistake. People should break free of blind fanboyism and nostalgia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition
If I want B.A. Baracus I will watch this>
;D
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Setosith
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Yes he was intended to sound gruff and slangy in the origional japanese. In america however, thats pretty damn casual so they had to up it a little....so we got the "gangsta" stereotype. I'm not saying he should still act gangster or that he shouldnt...i dont even care. I'm saying I don't want changed dialouge. And as for being a blind fanboy...>.> didn't I just give a giant speech about how much CC and DoC suck? And I know it doesnt matter what I think..Doesnt matter what anyone thinks square does what square wants..I was under the impression we were discussing our opinions on an ff7 remake though...which is why i happen to say "I would like" and "I would not like"..or is having an opinion forbidden here..?
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Sesiyrus
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Not exactly. Barret was considerably different in his dialect than the main cast. He may not have swore back and forth like he did in the English Dialogue, but he was most certainly a 'thug'-esque character.
Some of you may call it 'butchering' but imagine Barret speaking like any average American, was the 'different impression' given off in his dialogue in the Japanese version kept? No, it isn't. It was brought to that extent, I feel, to show the difference in Character through the society and the original translation had to be sacrificed for that. Barrets gruff and aggressive nature wouldn't have been much different from the average Americans perspective- His character archetype would have been lost. Now if a remake happened and it had the emphasis and power of voice acting to convey as such, it could have been toned down to an additional 'damn' here or there, but personally I feel they were only trying to show Barrets intense difference with the way he acted and spoke and not specially what he was saying, just the impression it would've given. These impressions and standards ARE different between countries.
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DLPB_
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More people than just Americans play VII in English. And Barrett is most certainly not a thug. The reason barrett ended up the way he did was because 1 man decided it. That was it...
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Sesiyrus
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I see you had nothing to counter my argument. *tips hat* I win, then, laddie.
Oh, he isn't? I believe I said, Thug-esque. If you want to be a nitpicker yourself, pick your words carefully there, aye?
He has a gun strapped to his arm
He grows up in a place that is stricken with poverty and problems
Said place is heavily associated with the crimes and evils with a corrupt government
He rages against the system with a rebel group and blows things up in a show of defiance to it
Ahem, you were saying?
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luksy
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Cid is the real sh*t-talker in FFVII, from what we've done so far he's the only one who's actually used a fairly strong swearword in the Japanese, Barrett just sounds like "average tough guy at the bar".
I get you LostWing, FFVII for you (and it goes without saying me & DLPB) holds a particular place in our memories, but each one of our experiences was of course unique.
For me the dialogue in FFVII was full of "huh?" moments back when I first played it, but the story and characters still shone through. Still that thought stuck at the back of my mind for 10+ years before I actually thought to myself "What was actually said there in the original? Why did that sound so awkward?", that's when I poked around and found the Qhimm forums, and DLPB and his project.
When I first started I honestly completely underestimated everything, from the amount of dialog, to just how many errors there actually are in the original English. We all know the famous "this guy are sick" etc., but those little grammatical errors are only the tip of the iceberg.
I've hardly spent a single day on this project without a serious semantical error cropping up in the dialogue, we're not talking "touph ring" or "off course" any more; take for instance Yuffie's dialogue aboard the Highwind.
Original
Big deal, it's only one minor dialogue from an optional character I hear you say. But that's the thing, there are truckloads of these errors, including quite a few that directly affect major events in subtle ways (off the top of my head Niblheim past & present has a generous helping).
I understand you want your memories of the game to stay the same, quirks and all, and that's fine; I just hope that you can appreciate my point of view too.
Just my 2 gil:
I get you LostWing, FFVII for you (and it goes without saying me & DLPB) holds a particular place in our memories, but each one of our experiences was of course unique.
For me the dialogue in FFVII was full of "huh?" moments back when I first played it, but the story and characters still shone through. Still that thought stuck at the back of my mind for 10+ years before I actually thought to myself "What was actually said there in the original? Why did that sound so awkward?", that's when I poked around and found the Qhimm forums, and DLPB and his project.
When I first started I honestly completely underestimated everything, from the amount of dialog, to just how many errors there actually are in the original English. We all know the famous "this guy are sick" etc., but those little grammatical errors are only the tip of the iceberg.
I've hardly spent a single day on this project without a serious semantical error cropping up in the dialogue, we're not talking "touph ring" or "off course" any more; take for instance Yuffie's dialogue aboard the Highwind.
Original
As localized by DLBP, not literal but captures the meaning better
whoever did this misread the first line, then used the wrong grammatical person, and as a result had to fit the second line to match it somehow. What we ended up with is a nonsensical mess (actually I'm still not 100% sure I've got it right either...)
Big deal, it's only one minor dialogue from an optional character I hear you say. But that's the thing, there are truckloads of these errors, including quite a few that directly affect major events in subtle ways (off the top of my head Niblheim past & present has a generous helping).
I understand you want your memories of the game to stay the same, quirks and all, and that's fine; I just hope that you can appreciate my point of view too.
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obesebear
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So we're trying this new program that automatically deletes posts that seem whiny or overly immature. If anyone notices their posts missing, it could be due to this new program...
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strife98
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This makes me want a thumbs up or a like button now.
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DLPB_
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edit. ^ his post was deleted.
It is really simple. Barrett is a character created by a Japanese team of writers who expected a competent job on their work. If J K Rowling went over to Japan and found out Harry Potter spoke in some kind of gangsta equivalent, she would not be happy.
No one has the right to take someone elses work and do what they like with it. Your personal preferences do not come into it. A localiser has the right to make the game sound good to a westerner WITHIN the boundaries of keeping the characters and facts the same. This did not happen. Barrett was made into a dumb black guy ripped off from a famous american black guy.
There is no way around this. There is no argument to be made. Until you can fathom that the original Barrett was every bit the mistake that the Aeris spelling was, you will get nowhere. I have not personally abused you. I have told you that you are flat out wrong, and now you get into a hissy fit. To quote Cloud... I'm not interested.
I don't think you have even bothered to read half the stuff I have put up otherwise you'd see only parts of his dialogue-type has been changed. The use of spelling mistakes, his use of $$^^$$#^^% all over, and other things that portray "Stereotypical black man gangsta" 90% is actually much the same.
The truth is, you can't accept someone else's opinion without bringing it to an extreme personal level.
I will sum it up for you a last time:
And then:
It is really simple. Barrett is a character created by a Japanese team of writers who expected a competent job on their work. If J K Rowling went over to Japan and found out Harry Potter spoke in some kind of gangsta equivalent, she would not be happy.
No one has the right to take someone elses work and do what they like with it. Your personal preferences do not come into it. A localiser has the right to make the game sound good to a westerner WITHIN the boundaries of keeping the characters and facts the same. This did not happen. Barrett was made into a dumb black guy ripped off from a famous american black guy.
There is no way around this. There is no argument to be made. Until you can fathom that the original Barrett was every bit the mistake that the Aeris spelling was, you will get nowhere. I have not personally abused you. I have told you that you are flat out wrong, and now you get into a hissy fit. To quote Cloud... I'm not interested.
I don't think you have even bothered to read half the stuff I have put up otherwise you'd see only parts of his dialogue-type has been changed. The use of spelling mistakes, his use of $$^^$$#^^% all over, and other things that portray "Stereotypical black man gangsta" 90% is actually much the same.
The truth is, you can't accept someone else's opinion without bringing it to an extreme personal level.
I will sum it up for you a last time:
- I have nothing against you liking the original Barrett, however wrongly translated he was.
- I have nothing against you liking the original localisation, however bad it was.
- I have nothing against you choosing to ignore our project or not use it.
And then:
- I do have a problem with you criticising our project because it doesn't do what you want it to do (namely... leave all the mistakes because you liked the mistakes...)
- I do have a problem with you criticising a project you have never even looked into properly
- I do have a problem with you protecting a flawed original game just because you personally liked it.
- I do have a problem with you making ridiculous analogies with sandwiches, ignoring that this is a work of art created by someone else. Making a point that your personal preference supersedes the actual writers is in my opinion... awful.
- I do have a problem with you failing to realise that your position on this is absurd. You are choosing to elevate 1 man (Michael Baskett) to an almost god-like position of authority on VII when it is clear he got tons of things wrong. You want me to join you in this delusion and if I don't, you get mad about it.
- Finally, I do have a problem with you failing to realise that although you like the original localisation because YOU grew up with it, other people may now have the chance to grow up on OURS. Who is right then, at the end? I am sure they would use the same argument you do now. You know what the difference is? They would have been playing something that had far far less mistakes and bad English. And... they would have been playing Final Fantasy VII as intended... not how 1 man messed up. Think about it.
The position that something is right because it was done that way years ago is ridiculous. To adhere so strongly to the original for the sole reason that it was the original, makes absolutely NO sense and is completely illogical. Expecting a translation project to leave mistakes in or simply not exist at all because you liked the mistakes is down right crazy.
BY all means, like the original. But please do not try to make excuses for it, or tell me (or infer) that I what I am doing is wrong, when it is quite the opposite.
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StickySock
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I actually very much liked the gangsta Barret. He was funny, tough, sensitive, and a badass.
But when doing a translation, faithfulness to the original is most important. For a pb & j analogy, it may have been an almond sandwich you liked better all along but if you want to ever tell someone you like it you must tell them you like almond sandwiches, not pb and j's. Or in otherwords, liking a mistranslation and not the more accurate one.
We all have preferences, and as many that can stay out unless supported by evidence should stay out. That's not to say someone couldnt make an alternate version with gangsta barret, but it is important to start with an accurate foundation.
But when doing a translation, faithfulness to the original is most important. For a pb & j analogy, it may have been an almond sandwich you liked better all along but if you want to ever tell someone you like it you must tell them you like almond sandwiches, not pb and j's. Or in otherwords, liking a mistranslation and not the more accurate one.
We all have preferences, and as many that can stay out unless supported by evidence should stay out. That's not to say someone couldnt make an alternate version with gangsta barret, but it is important to start with an accurate foundation.
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ultima espio
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How do we always end up with the same conversation?
Seriously, nowadays we always end up with either a discussion on a remake or the translation.
Seriously, nowadays we always end up with either a discussion on a remake or the translation.
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DLPB_
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I was to blame here. Originally. I should keep my fat gob on my own thread. :evil: The truth is I like my own posts too much. A rare time I can see clear sanity and logic. ;D
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LeonhartGR
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I agree with DLPB...
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DLPB_
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My problem isn't with criticism. It is with the mindless "Why are you changing something I grew up and loved" "I don't want you changing the mistakes because...."
That isn't valid or helpful, it just makes me angry.
Other games have been retranslated and really improved on what went before... the localisers there sure didn't pay any attention to people who may have preferred "I have information Shinra" etc.
I understand full well the reason some people do not like our project. Earlier criticisms of literal non dialogue were perhaps valid, but here we are simply talking about fanboyism and nostalgia. I have even had 1 guy defend Midgar Zolom because he liked it.
Getting back on topic... any remake of VII would improve the translation, so anyone who thinks they would keep Midgar Zolom or the dialogue mistakes is mad. They have already corrected that one and Proud Clod in later games like IX and XIII.
That isn't valid or helpful, it just makes me angry.
And that makes no sense at all. Cringe at improving mistakes? How can I possibly get through to that kind of mind?
Other games have been retranslated and really improved on what went before... the localisers there sure didn't pay any attention to people who may have preferred "I have information Shinra" etc.
I understand full well the reason some people do not like our project. Earlier criticisms of literal non dialogue were perhaps valid, but here we are simply talking about fanboyism and nostalgia. I have even had 1 guy defend Midgar Zolom because he liked it.
Getting back on topic... any remake of VII would improve the translation, so anyone who thinks they would keep Midgar Zolom or the dialogue mistakes is mad. They have already corrected that one and Proud Clod in later games like IX and XIII.
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Livesey
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Of course your problem isn't with criticism, criticism is good for a project, an outside eye never hurt anyone.
Also Proud Clod... To this day I have been reading it as Proud Cloud, no idea why now I feel stupid.
Also Proud Clod... To this day I have been reading it as Proud Cloud, no idea why now I feel stupid.
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