[PSX/PC] General editor - Hades Workshop (0.50b)

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Just found an interesting glitch.

I set up Nova Dragon so that its multi-target shockwave was Attack Type 8 instead of Enemy Attack since it seemed less random.
When it got used, Zidane, Quina, and Freya all countered since it was a physical attack, but after that, Zidane and Quina were glitched and their animation kept trying to do their last action, if they did anything other then countering, the game would soft-lock and their turns would never happen.

Very Interesting, speaking of which, what is it about the Enemy Attack effect that seems to make it so random? The damage seems to vary from doing 40 damage to over 1000.

*Edit: After looking at the formula, it seems the Random Mod is only divided by 4 for Enemy Attack rather than 8 for party skills. They tried a little too hard to make this game random, jeez.
 
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That's strange... Most of Enemy Attacks are counterable and I'm pretty sure Shockwave is counterable by default.

When doing my mod, I had another tedious bug about counters. The game was not ready to use spells that deal damage several times.
If you add several effect points to a spell animation (both in the "Spell animation" panel and in the "Enemies" panel), you need to make sure no one will ever have a counter action twice for the same spell since that freezes the game.

EDIT: That bug doesn't occur with the Steam version. Only PSX version.

Counter actions are either the enemy reacting to your action (counters, obviously, but also things like Tantarian opening itself) or you reacting to an enemy action (counter, return magic and, most importantly, auto-potion).

To avoid an enemy reacting twice to your action, you have no other choice than to disable the counter (at least more than once) in the IA scripts for the specific spell animations that damage several times.
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    // Those lines are always in the counter functions already    if ( ( GetAttackCommandId == 25 ) && ( GetAttackId == 103 ) ) {        return    }    //  Those lines need to be added, replacing the numbers by the spells IDs    // of the spells with several damage points in their animation    if ( ( GetAttackId == 100 ) || ( GetAttackId == 101 ) ) {        return    }
Here is a list of enemies that can react to your attacks. It's tedious but you would need to add some few lines in their AI to avoid bugs.
I didn't put the enemies that already have a "counter only once" system or those that counter only the "Attack" command.

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// Disc 1YanFriendly YanArmstrongGhostGizamalukeGrimlocks (both of them)JabberwockMimicCactuarLamiaSand ScorpionBomb (counter fire spells only)Black Waltz 2 (counter the elemental Black magics only)// Disc 2SoldierZuuSand GolemTantarian (put the script after HP update)Zorn & ThornSand Scorpion (more of them)Soulcage (counter fire spells only)StroperZemzelett// Disc 3AmdusiasShell Dragon (only the random encounters)Epitaph (magic disbled for these battles)Grimlocks (more of them)DrakanRing LeaderTonberry (put the script after HP update)Mover (optionnal : they don't crash the game but don't pass from 2 of them to 1 of them)// Disc 4AshKraken (when he's on crystal shape only ; he already has a "counter once" system as a boss)Trance Kuja
I might add a feature that automatically adds those anti-bug lines inside the AI of these enemies.

Now, about the spells that the enemies can cast and trigger a reaction from you, I see only 2 solutions :
- Make sure the party doesn't have the access to counter abilities by the time those enemies are met...
- Make sure that the enemies use the concerned abilities only as a counter attack : you can't react to a counter so it won't be a problem.


That's unfortunatly another deception from spell animations editing... That begins to make a lot of them  :-\
 
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Haha, shouldn't be surprised that a game as complicated as this has lots of bugs when you start to edit things.

Lots of interesting quirks too, I've been messing around with attack effects to see what happens, certain weird things I've noticed is that editing certain enemy attacks to be "Physical Attack" seems to place some kind of element with that attack depending on the enemy. For example, Nova Dragon was healing some of my characters with Shockwave when it was set to "Physical Attack", yet it's non-elemental by default and no element was set up. Very interesting.

Also, the only reason I can see why counter was glitching earlier is that "Attack Type 8" seems to only be set up for single target attacks, another interesting quirk.
 
Very Interesting, speaking of which, what is it about the Enemy Attack effect that seems to make it so random? The damage seems to vary from doing 40 damage to over 1000.

*Edit: After looking at the formula, it seems the Random Mod is only divided by 4 for Enemy Attack rather than 8 for party skills. They tried a little too hard to make this game random, jeez.
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One thing to note about the Enemy Attack formula is that the formula given in the editor must be wrong, or I'm reading it incorrectly. The formula given is:

Damage = (Attack * power/10 - Defense) * strength

(to keep it simple, I only calculate it for the minimum damage now, not considering the range).

But whenever I do the math I end up with way higher damage numbers than are actually dealt in game. Let's take Abadon and his High Wind attack for example:

Abadon has an Attack stat of 75, a strength stat of 22, and High Wind has a power of 60.
As for the target's defense, let's assume a value of 45, which is pretty much the best that you can have at this point (Genji-Armor, the best Robes and such).

So we fill in:

Damage = (75 * 60/10 - 45) * 22 = 8910

So even with a top defense, Abadon's High Wind attack should deal a minimum of almost 9000 damage to the party! And we know that it's far from that. The formula must be incorrect, or missing a bracket or something. My guess is that it's really pretty much the same as the "Attack type 8" formula, only with a somewhat higher range, as you said.

However, I did notice one (more or less important) difference in my observations: it seems that attacks that use the "Enemy Attack" formula cannot miss, ever (can tirlititi confirm this?). This gives it an advantage over the "Attack type 8" formula, especially in late game where your evasion is usually around 30-35, rendering enemy physical attacks that use "Attack type 8" almost useless due to the way the hit % calculation works.
 
So much for the formula (I don't remember where I picked it).

Indeed, "Enemy Attacks" can't miss. They can also inflict status aliments and they can take their element in account (though it is strange about it because I think they don't always do and Dogshrapnel just discovered they can have another element, maybe related to the enemy's element).
Actually, the only drawback I found about it is that it doesn't trigger trouble's spreading damage even when using a single target.

There are so many tests to make their to figure out all the subtilities of the different effects... There are even some flags I still don't know anything about.
However, I don't think it is in the last release I made, but I recently figured out the purpose of one flag, the 7th one (left to "Returnable") : it disables the "Hit" or "Death" animation on strike (even though that it's mostly used with spells that don't deal damage and therefore won't trigger it anyway).

EDIT : The right formula for "Enemy Attack" is
Damage = (Power - Defence) * Random[Strength, Strength + (Level + Strength) / 4]
It's exactly the same as "Attack 8" actually, judging from my tests... There shouldn't be more variance in one or in the other.

Note that the "Attack" statistic of the enemy is not used... I begin to think this field as nothing to do with an attack statistic.
 
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That's the feeling I got, otherwise the damage enemies do with some attacks would be waaaaay higher.
 
EDIT : The right formula for "Enemy Attack" is
Damage = (Power - Defence) * Random[Strength, Strength + (Level + Strength) / 4]
It's exactly the same as "Attack 8" actually, judging from my tests... There shouldn't be more variance in one or in the other.

Note that the "Attack" statistic of the enemy is not used... I begin to think this field as nothing to do with an attack statistic.
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Yeah, that formula looks more like it, and that was also my impression after testing it a bit. The bugs observed by Dogshrapnel still confuse me, though.

It's kinda strange that the Attack stat went completely unused. But then again, it's not the first time in the FF series that an entire stat serves no purpose at all, though in previous games it was always one of your party characters' stats. In FF1, the Intelligence stat was unused, in FF6 it was the Evade stat, and in FF7 it was Magic Defense. It seems every game has its share of bugs, lol.
 
One thing I'm curious about is the other attack types, all the basic physical attacks used by enemies are of the "Attack Type 8" class, so what the heck are the other 7?
 
While we're at the subject of attack formulas, I got a couple random questions about some:

1) Is it possible to make other attack types never miss just like "Enemy attack"? Because I'd like that for Flare Star and Blue Shockwave, but increasing their accuracy seemed to do nothing at all.

2) Is there a difference between the "Matra Magic" formula and the "Roulette" formula that for example Ark's Photon is using?

3) How exactly do Tiamat's "Absorb Magic" and "Absorb Strength" skills work? Like by how much do they reduce the target's stat, and does it increase his own stat by the same amount? I think I've read somewhere that he drains half of the target's stat and adds that to his own, but I don't remember where I read that.

4) I've noticed that several attacks which use the "Bad Status" formula also have a spell power (Grand Dragon's Venom Breath or Ark's Propeller Wind, for example), even though it's useless because attacks using the "Bad Status" formula don't use the power byte. So I was wondering: were these attacks actually meant to deal damage in addition to causing the status effect? Maybe they just used the "Bad Status" formula by mistake, when they should be using the "Magic Attack" formula?

Sorry for the many questions, those were just some things that I've been wondering about for a while now.
 
No probl. As said, there are lots of details like these.

1) Not for now. The accuracy formulas are hardcoded in the spell's effect (except for Vivi's Meteor and Comet which are linked to the spell slot).

2) The only difference I would see for Matra Magic and Roulette is the accuracy formula. Roulette always succeed while Matra Magic can miss.
They both don't use the Status field so I use Maelstrom if I ever want a similar effect adding a status.

3) I checked it and it does that :
- Doubles the stat of the user,
- Divide by 2 the stat of the target.

4) I think the programers kind of copy-pasted the spells and changed what needed to be changed, leaving unused fields (such as the power for those "Bad Status" spells) unmodified. I've noticed that the power is usually the same as another spell in the enemy's spell list.
 
Hey I sent you a pm last night but I guess you didn't see it, but I actually understand how to apply patches and stuff to the game, but I do not know how to add Blank to the party. I tried asking Leroche when emailing him, but his description was also confusing :/ I do not see an add party function in Hades, but I really am trying to learn how this all works...I just really want blank in my party. whether its adding him in or switching him out with someone else like steiner. sorry for the long post, just really eager to know how.
 
So I did tweaking and everything around the tool and notice some things with the skills and weapons. I can get everything working, but again like I said...Blank...also trying to add marcus now too. its confusing, but I really am trying..I tried looking at scenes in the fields when marcus or blank is actually in the party...but I dont see anything that is them. Like when you click on some numbers it says an item ex: 1 is dagger 21 is I think gladius..and so on. I was trying to figure out what will actually get them in my party permanently or what this Initializing thing you were talking bout before. Party_Reserve(2303) won't work until It actually gives me the option to swap party members right? I am getting the hang of some things, but would really like you input. I also looked at your post on qhimm, but I could not figure out where you were talking bout adding models except one part, but you don't go into how to do it, or how to add or remove certain models(party members) like beatrix, cinna,blank, marcus. What I am actually trying to do, is do these 4 people: Zidane,Blank,Marcus, and Beatrix(its okay if not her because complications like fighting her as a boss or just too many different code inputs.
Sorry just posting this if you did not get my Email :/
Or if we can use some type of IM so it can go by quicker..heh
Edit: oh I just noticed you said something about adding him in at a certain time? or removing someone beforehand. So lets say in Evil forest the first area its just Zidane, is it possible to have him there? and when I go to fight the prison cage boss he will be that 4th character? Or should I use this code after I finish evil forest cuz he comes in the last battle of it. So whatever number Steiner is at ice cavern i would remove him from party and then add blank? Can I just load from a save game or have to start over each time to test this?
 
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No probl. As said, there are lots of details like these.

1) Not for now. The accuracy formulas are hardcoded in the spell's effect (except for Vivi's Meteor and Comet which are linked to the spell slot).

2) The only difference I would see for Matra Magic and Roulette is the accuracy formula. Roulette always succeed while Matra Magic can miss.
They both don't use the Status field so I use Maelstrom if I ever want a similar effect adding a status.

3) I checked it and it does that :
- Doubles the stat of the user,
- Divide by 2 the stat of the target.

4) I think the programers kind of copy-pasted the spells and changed what needed to be changed, leaving unused fields (such as the power for those "Bad Status" spells) unmodified. I've noticed that the power is usually the same as another spell in the enemy's spell list.
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Ah, I see. Too bad about 1, but I guess it can't be helped. I think I'll just lower the evade and magic evade of armlets and gauntlets then, which are a bit too high in my opinion anyway.

The other things are nice to know. That explains why the damage from Tiamat's attacks will sky-rocket after draining the same stat twice. Copy-Pasting of the "Bad Status" spells makes sense, I didn't think of that.

One more question if you don't mind:

I've noticed that the Death and Mini spells used by some enemies don't use the "Bad Status" formula, but have their own "Death" and Mini" formulas, respectively. However, since the same result could be achieved by using the "Bad Status" formula, is there any point to having separate formulas for death and mini? Do they have any advantages/disadvantages over the "Bad Status" formula?
 
I've figured the Death effect difference quiet recently : if the target is under Zombie, it totally heals him instead of applying the status effect (whatever this status is). The effect Death is the only one to do that (Lv5 Death, for instance, kill the zombies like the others).

There may be a similar thing for Mini but I recall having checked that a long time ago and it seems that "Bad Status" also removes Mini if the target is already under Mini and if that's the status of the spell.

@ uzoko1 : I answer you by e-mails.
 
I've figured the Death effect difference quiet recently : if the target is under Zombie, it totally heals him instead of applying the status effect (whatever this status is). The effect Death is the only one to do that (Lv5 Death, for instance, kill the zombies like the others).

There may be a similar thing for Mini but I recall having checked that a long time ago and it seems that "Bad Status" also removes Mini if the target is already under Mini and if that's the status of the spell.
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Ah, interesting, I didn't think of the Zombie status. Thanks. Yeah, Lv5 Death works differently, according to the formula you gave in the editor it doesn't really inflict a status, but rather sets the enemy's HP to a certain value (in this case 0). That's why death resistance cannot protect against it.

I still don't see a difference with Mini, however. It's been a while, but I swear I saw Quale's Mini spell enlarge my already mini'd party again, and it's using the "Mini" formula.

On another subject, I've noticed that Trance-Kuja deals 1.5 times damage with Holy when compared to Flare, even though both spells have the same power. I've made sure that none of my party members wears any equipment that changes Holy damage (and I don't think there is any equipment that makes you weak to it, anyway), yet still all 4 party members took 50% more damage from Holy than from Flare. This leads me to believe that there must be something that allows enemies to boost the damage from a certain element by 50%, similar to how some equipment pieces grant you a damage boost for some elements. Do you know anything about that?
 
So I just found out something very interesting.

I removed "Add Status" from Zidane's ability list planning to make it so that he would just use "Soul Blade" for all of his status effects. However, after doing that, I randomly got the Silence effect from the Mage Masher even though it didn't exist for him anymore. So the trigger for weapon status effects might be locked from working due to the ability rather than the other way around. I haven't done any more testing with other characters but it doesn't seem to be a fluke or anything like that.
 
Okay, Gizamaluke is weird...

The editor displays him as having a normal amount of health, so I let the the player be able to poison him since he's fairly hard in the mod I'm working on.

So when I poisoned him...he took over 4000 damage and ended the fight instantly. Tents also heal him for 9999 HP if you use that tactic...

So what gives? Other "Heavy" bosses who die when under 10000 are shown in the editor right? Why is Gizamaluke and perhaps other bosses as well have weird HP values not shown?
 
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