WEIRD FF8 ENDING?

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I'm gonna stop with the displeasure thing, I can't remember why I said that and I don't want to be like joey and stupid so I will not post displease again, when things annoy me I will ignore them.
 And just fro the record It isn't boring and just because something is pointless doesn't mean its not interesting.
 
Fice, I'm not too sure of what you were to trying to say by thinking about the area of rectangle but anyway I'll post a reply just in case what I presume you're trying to say is right.The area of a rectangle?
Let me see....

This is a rectangle   :)


code:

Code: 
<-length->|========|  ^|        |  |Height|        |  ||========|  |
Click to expand...
This rectangle is enclosed so we can say the area has area.
Since it is enclosed, it should have a finite amount of area.

Was this what you were trying to say, Fice?
No matter how small we divide the units of measurement(for the length or the height), the area for the rectangle stays finite.


Well, let me illustrate my idea further.

Let's assume we take the example of an apple.
And we assume that the apple is the only form of mass in the universe   :)
We again assume that the apple is of x mass.
Now, let's say 1 second later, I decide to smash the apple.
The apple is disfigured now   :)
Now, after making some calculations, the smashed apple is still of x mass
After that, the smashed apple decides to travel back to the past.
When it travels back to 1 second ago before it was smashed, there will be now a total mass of 2x at that second of time thus upsetting the whole mass of the universe at that time.
You see, the apple was only one second away from the smashed apple.
What if we divided a second into miliseconds?
Then we would have even more duplication of mass that "could" upset the balance of mass even more.
Now, back to the idea of unlimited "subdivision" of time (infinitely small units).
With such a division, there would be an infinite amount of mass, wouldn't it?
As you can see, at any moment of time, there can only be a finite amount of mass (the mass of one apple)
Since only a finite amount of mass "should" exist an any point of time, time travel would be illogical.
Do you follow me now?

[This message has been edited by The SaiNt (edited April 17, 2001).]

[/quote]
 
And what do you define as relevant?Are you saying you should only discuss things that you personally can affect and that also matter to the majority of other people? Somehow I don't think most people would agree with you there...

And yes, this is a FF forum, but you may have noticed that the general forum is sometimes used to discuss other things. It is a *general* forum, after all.
 
Yes it is a general forum but it is still odd to be discussing it here.
What I meant by relevent was that it was something to do with the people that read this board.
 
I dont care if you discuss time travel but to start an argument over it is a bit silly rthen to argue whether time was singular or made up of infinite units is silly odd as something that is infinite is singular. eg a circle is just an infinite number of straight lines but is described as being a singular line.
 
I can't agree with you regarding the mass turning infinite over time. Your argument is valid up to the point where you say "there will be now a total mass of 2x at that second of time". The apple exists in a point in time, not in a second of time. Just like a coordinate of space doesn't refer to a certain cm^3, rather a point within it.You're talking as if the apple's mass somehow stretched over a period of time. This is just like a cube. For every point in the z dimension, it has width and height (but no depth). The volume and mass stay finite, no matter how much you divide the z axis into smaller units. The same applies to time. If you somehow wanted the total mass of a constant object during a time period, you would take the mass and multiply it by the number of seconds (SI unit), thus giving us the total mass-time in kg·s. Nothing goes infinite, it's just like a simple integrated function.

The only way you would get an infinite mass-time is if time itself was infinite (no beginning/no end) and you wanted to calculate the total mass-time of the universe or something.

The total matter duplication of going a second back in time is x kg·s, where x is the mass of the object going back in time. Going two seconds back gives a matter duplication of 2x kg·s, etc.
 
Yes ... if the mass before the apple appeared was X, after the apple has travelled back it's X + (weight of apple). What's the problem...?
 
It's not good to change the total mass of the universe. IIRC, there are quite a lot of physical theories which requires the total mass to be constant. Besides, imagine the possible consequences! If we get enough time travelers back in time, the total mass of the universe could increase enough to change a fate of a forever expanding universe to a universe that ends in a Big Crunch. Quite dire.No, it is best for all if the mass remains constant.

Hmm... there was this particle... a lot of theories required their count to remain constant, but I *cannot* remember its name. Damn...
 
I'm not counterdicting myself.....your just either skimming over my posts...or your just remembering what you want to remember.If you review, you'll find that I haven't altered, in my overall story. I said Ultimecia's was in the real present and Squall is in her ancient history.

We are viewing the story as a paradox is taking place, and are viewing it from the past. Not from a future (Ultimecia) perspective, but from Squall's Perspective. I then threw some speculations that are supported in the story, to make it all fit nicely together.

I'm also aware of two version of the Hyne story, in FF8. One is told by the old man? ( Could be a woman) in Balamb. (the hyne cut himself in half and gave the people the part of him that had the lesser magic). The other version is told on the White Seed ship (the hyne turned into two halfs....two complete halfs, and gave part of himself to the people, which later turned out to be only his Shedded Skin and apparently had no powers in it). I was going by the Balamb version. The white SeeD version, doesn't make very much, sense to me. I made up the Master/Slave GF thing for a lack of better terms....Every GF in the game is either stolen, Found, or Defeated. I had to plug in that with the GF's being lesser Gods from the same Universe that the Hyne lives in...and that Master/Slave thing was what came to mind. It really doesn't apply to my discussion of Time in FF8...but I felt it was a good enough to support the idea that the Hyne is a God (of sorts)....made people and gave the people some of his powers. And when people Junction GF's they are really getting help from Gods of FF8. I was just setting up a barrier between Ellone and the GF's, nothing more.

Now, I've been saying both these things from the very beginning.

1. The past can't change the past...but the present can, and
2. We are viewing the story from Squall's Time, which is truly the past.

Ultimecia's Time is truly the present. The future beyond Ultimecia is not written. There is no fated story, for her. She's making choices and they are having consquences that we are viewing from Squalls perspective.


Maybe you need a different example. Imagine writing a story.....and finishing it. And then going back to the middle of the finished story and rewriting a certain detail. And that detail effect every thing from that point of the story on forward. The original ending is in the wastebacket....and your currently doing a rewrite.

That's how I picture FF8. A history that is being rewritten, because of Ultimecia's influences. Her timeline is in the wastebasket, because she died in the past. That's why we see the paradox in Squall's Present and not Ultimecia's Present. If Ultimecia had made it back to her own Present. The paradox would have been seen there, instead. And the story would have been written as such....which would have made a less, magical story and a much shorter one.

This is the main reason why we see the influences that Squall made in his own past and the reasoning of his fate of  distroying Ultimecia. I'm, now, talking about the SeeD/Garden/Edea thing that you keep trying to throwing in my face. All that happens and is remembered, because Squall made it back to his original Timeline. When Ultimecia Died in that past, the torch was passed on to Squall. The only reason it was fated was because Squall went to the past and Ultimecia died in that same past. In my reasoning...Squall going into the past is the only loop in the story, everything else is very, linear. Well....maybe the Adel power thing is a loop, too. But I didn't think about that one until the middle of these postings, while I was making my flowchart. (man work has been really heavy...can't fix any of the misspellings in the flowchart. LOL)

To put my basic theory of timetravel in FF8, even shorter....Changing the past from the past, isn't possible. Changing the past from the present is possible....Changing the future is "Not Applicable" (N/A). All of these things are supported in FF8. And that's my main concern...real life not need, apply.

Yes, it's more complex....but that's why I think it's fun to think about. But I don't find re-explaining things very, fun....
I was hoping that some holes in my theory could be found through controversy....but your just countering it with a more common theory.....Apples and Oranges as far as I'm concerned.


[This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited April 18, 2001).]
 
And again, you seem to be picking and choosing the presents and pasts as you like, without any rules.Think about this... when the present is Ellone's time, can she change the past?  Remember... Ellone's past is not a result of any of Ultimecia's changes... thus, she'd *always* try to get Laguna to return to Raine.  So, if I'm writing this story, and I get to Ellone's part, and she decides to try and change the past... well, according to your rules, she should succeed, shouldn't she?

She doesn't.  She fails miserably.


Ellone's usage of her power is the first instant of time travel.  Yet you conveniently ignore it so you can go ahead and make Ultimecia's time the 'true present'.

I'd call that a flaw.

In addition, you've come up with all these laws which seem completely screwy.  If a time traveller dies and doesn't go back to their own time, why does that mean their timeline is automatically destroyed?  And why does Squall now carry the 'torch'?  Shouldn't Edea's be the true present then since the change took place there?

You're placing too much importance on the time traveller, and not enough importance on the actions that traveller takes.


And again, as I've told you before, there's no *need* for FF8 to be a paradox.  I've outlined theories before that work well without a paradox being created.


Look, if you want to view FF8 in that way, I'm not going to stop you.  I disagree with the theories for various reasons (screwy laws that seem designed to ignore certain events and wait until you want them to work, and the fact that various symbolism works better within the story if you use the theory I've outlined)... but I'm sure if you add enough rules and tweak it enough you'll get something that works... but I think you'd lose a few things Square was trying to show.


The most important sentence that reflects this is Edea in Disc 3.  I've said it before, but I'll say it again:

"I now understand there is an end, no matter how painful it may be."
"Therefore...Squall?"
"You must fight to the end! Even though it may bring tragedy to others!"


You can explain this away in many different ways... but the symbolism is *STRONGEST* if the past has already been changed by Ultimecia.

Really, there's nothing more to say.  If we continue this particular part of the debate, you will eventually create a theory that makes sense within FF8 and works towards an ending you, personally, want.  However, I still do not believe it is a theory Square intended to use, and I feel that FF8 loses a bit of its symbolism because of it.

It's clear that we're not going to be able to convince each other, so I'm going to leave this here.  While it has been nice discussing this with you, retreading the same ground is becoming tiring, and both of us obviously remain unconvinced ^_^

So... up for a truce?  ^_^
 
This thread suddenly took a turn back for the worse, i.e. FF8's story. I can't muster the strength needed to keep up with another one of these discussions...
 
Truce???? I never considered it as a war.Really I'm just trying to gather some idea's together....maybe I'll write a report on it or something and put it on my webpage.

Hey! you have a point! Ellone had wanted to change the past way before Ultimecia started all that trouble......That was the kinda feedback I was looking for...., come to think of it, she sent Squall to the past before Ultimecia started taking possesion over Edea. At least that's the conclusion I got from the story. Remember when the President was looking freaked out of what Edea was saying, before the parade....like if....the speech was supposed to be legit, or something. Honestly I never understood that speech....The audience had to hear her, right? Why did the parade continue? I would have thought that the audience would have turned against her at that moment, if they payed any attention to what she was saying.

I got to the Space scene you talked about before (seems like a long time ago), and now I know what you were talking about. Ultimecia tells Squall to get out, when Ellone send him to that moment in time, but I can't figure out how that really hurts my little theory.

Regardless, my idea is not totaly abandoned....Remember my idea of Adel getting her powers because Ellone sent Ultimecia and Rinoa into, a young, Adel to start Time Compression? (The Time Compression didn't happen instantly....maybe Time flows the same in all timelines? And that is the reason for the delay?) If Adel never recieved her powers Laguna's timeline would have been greatly altered....

This is kinda cool, if you think about it. It's even deeper than FF7. Too bad Square didn't put any focus into these parts of the game (then again maybe it's just too hard to do it sucessfully, so they decided not to touch the subject.).

Just consider it, for a few moments. If Adel was never a sorceress, then everything would be different. Laguna would have married Rinoa's Mom. Rinoa wouldn't have been born, Squall wouldn't have been born. Garden and SeeD wouldn't have ever existed. Maybe this is what Edea meant about fighting to the end?I'm sure a lot of other things could be found that would be even more intresting. Like what if Ellone would then become, evil.

Evil? How, you say? I just discovered this dialog, last night...when you talk to one of the guys outside Odine's lab, right before you go back inside to get Odine. (It's during the last flashback to Laguna the one where he finally finds Ellone). Laguna tells a story where Ellone put Jam in his shoes. It is then noted that Ellone is a little bratt. I got a real kick out of that dialog, mainly because I never read it before. So maybe she would have been evil, if it wasn't for Laguna. This is way too far fetched though...because then she wouldn't have lost her parents, and wouldn't have a real reason to have that anger. (I brainstorm a lot when I write...and the only time I write are on Forums so everything here is a brainstorm...actually I never thought about any of this until the post on 4-02-01.)

All I'm trying to do is pull more magic out of FF8. I know we can all agree that FF8 doesn't have very much of that stuff. It has it's moments...but they are far and few between.

I guarantee next time you play the game, and think about what I've been proposing....you'll start to see what FF8 could have been or could mean. And you'll noticed that it's not that far of a leap from what's in the game.

....I guess my theory is based more on the alternative dimentions thing you were talking about earlier. Kinda Dragon Ball Z style (the one with the androids....  :D I didn't know about DBZ until Cartoon Network started playing them, and that's as far as they are, currently.).

....I'm only saying that Ultimecia's time gets thrown away, because Ultimecia dies in the past. This leaves an opening for radical thinking. If Ultimecia never returns to her present time (the future) does "that" future really exist? You can take the standard view and say yes it does. Or you can take the radical view and say it doesn't. I'm just trying to put logic behind the radical view.

Does time have an ending? or does it go on indifinitly. I choose indifinitly. Seems most people like the idea of Time having an  ending. (To me, looping of time is the same as time ending. What could be worse than
reliving your mistakes?   :wink: )

I like to believe that, if you go back in time and change something...the changes will be true changes...and not just fated changes. I like to believe that traveling to the future doesn't matter, but going to the past does. Also, that everything in the past is "locked in" until a TimeTraveler interfers with it. Then all hell breaks lose. I also like to believe that you can only travel to one instant in the past one, single time.

To me, everything revolves around the TimeTraveler. And in FF8 Ultimecia is the Timetraveler, everything else is just a reaction to her traveling to the past. And we, as viewers, are watching the changes through Squall's eye's. A paradox in the making, but never completed because Ultimecia never returns to her present to rein the benfits.

In my idea...Ultimecia's history has no timetravler in it. Ultimecia is the first to travel into the past. It's a very hard concept to put in words and make rules for....but the three rules I came up with are the best way I can explain it.

Thanks to the discusion here, I found out that the main problem to my theory is, How does Ultimecia discover Timetravel in the first place? If what I say is true...then...how? I need to solve this in a way that it can be accepted. It's very easy to say that, everything is fated and forget about the story of FF8 and then say it's just your average Timetravel story......but if I can figure out an explanation it would put a whole new twist on FF8 and add to it's replayablility...at least one more time.

Hey! FF8 is more like FF7 than I thought. The only difference is that FF7 doesn't have an ending, and FF8 doesn't have a beginning. Remember everyone in FF8 land concluded that Edea got her powers from Adel. And it turned out to be false. Now everyone believe's that Ultimecia got Timetravel from Ellone. Maybe she didn't. Maybe it came from a different source. And Ultimecia found out about Ellone during her possesion of Edea and the idea of Time Compression later on. I never thought FF7 and FF8 would be so much alike. (Wouldn't you like that type of aspect from a Square Final Fantasy game? I may not have everything down pat....but It comes very, very close to being a Final Fantasy Story that "Awes".)

Well, "I" think it puts a whole, new light on FF8. And gives FF8 the same mystery that FF7 has....I never denied the default theory of FF8....I'm just looking for reasons to keep it on my harddrive and everyone else harddrive, too.

We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances," or "When you have two competing theories which make exactly the same predictions, the one that is simpler is the better."

...and sure makings for a boring story. well....guess that's it, then.... I'll go back to the shadows, now..... Heh, heh....At 50+ post, since August, I'd guess that you'll be doing the same   :D.

It's not, how much you post...it's what you post.

(I've own FF8PC since it hit the shelves and I still haven't gotten Eden, Bahmaut or Toneberry, or Doom Train....This run through is the first time I became a friend of the Chocobo's...in the past I would just ride them out of the forest...I never knew that there were hidden items in that forest. I'm going to try to get those missing GF's this time around....I'm curious on what the Summons look like. I wonder what else I've missed in the game.)

[This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited April 19, 2001).]
 
Ummm. . I just wanted to say that I took a little bit of a different take than ThreeSixty on the whole blurry memory thing. I see it as Squall still felt that a part of himself was in the past. There was something left he needed to know, so he fell in a time warp and then there was that little scene - I totally agree with ThreeSixty about the sorceress shin dig. Well , he felt secure about leaving. This didn't change his past - it clarified it to him. He went on a search for them, his mind wandered and he walked seemingly unendlessly. He finally came to a rift in time. He falls to the ground with fatigue. Meanwhile Rinoa is running through the field searching. He grabs for a feather, reminding him of her. All of the memories come flooding over him. Everything is blurred. She is slipping away from him. The image of her in space is a horrifying disorientation of a memory. He sort of thinks "What If". He could never live without her. He goes unconcious. She feels the connection and goes to him. I agree with you from that point on.
    Anyhow - why complicate it???
 
Heh.  I see what you're saying.  Just a couple of points here:We assume Ultimecia got Time Travel from Ellone from Odine's words.  Odine tells us he built the Ellone Machine after doing tests on Ellone.  It wasn't perfect in his time, but in the future (he says), it has been perfected and Ultimecia has gotten hold of it.  That's the thing you need to turn around.


The other point is... I disagree that FF8's story is boring, no matter which way you tell it.  It's poorly told, I can agree with that... but...

...the things I *LOVE* about FF8, are the way things all fit together.  Small example: Do you remember the movie Laguna made?  If Laguna had not made it, Seifer would never have had his romantic dream, or perhaps even be a gunblade expert.  And he wouldn't have been as easily led as he was by Ultimecia.

Irvine's reason for not shooting Edea, we later learn, isn't nervousness (although he probably had a good deal of that), but because he recognised Edea as Matron.

The radio interference encompassing the globe, if you read it carefully, contains a message Adel is continually transmitting to everyone... almost subliminally.


It's these small touches... how everything fits together... that makes FF8 for me.  Just because I believe that FF8's time travel theory seems to be based on fated past/fated future, doesn't mean it loses any magic for me.  (In fact, it's almost the reverse; I respect Square for doing this.  Instead of using any old time travel theory since 90% of people wouldn't understand it, they seem to have gone with something that works logically and can be explained... if you look deep enough)


FF8's flaw has never been its story.  It's always been in the way the story's portrayed.  Most people won't even see most of the details, and even then, it takes several logical leaps to be able to work out most of the hidden details.  That leaves the general public mystified... and thus they don't get as much enjoyment from the story as they should.  (FF8 also had a few game flaws, but they're avoidable... again, if you know what you're doing)

I don't think FF8 is boring... merely has bad presentation.  It should be interesting to see what you eventually come up with though, so I'll wait on that.

Have fun.
 
Jeez....I never caught on to that...About Laguna's movie and Seifer. I always thought it was the book that the library had. At least I think it was a book. I remember seeing something about it on that classroom console. It said something about, 'the following things have been checked into the library'; then there was a list of things and one of the titles was something about The Sorceress' Knight. And there were other titles about Peppen? or something to that effect. I never figured out what that Peppen thing was. I guess it's that Flying Saucer and the battle where you get his card. I haven't done that quest.

The first time I played FF8, I thought I would be able to read those books. I thought that Square would put it in as a side game or something....like the Mogg Cupo Nut Flying game that was in FF7's Wonder Square. I was also, so sure that there would be a minigame with Zell's hoverboard, but they never used, either in the game. FF8 could have been so much better.....

I never noticed Adel's message...I guess it the part where Squall and party were looking at that big screen TV? Next time I'll pay more attention to the garbled on the Big Screen.

I still enjoy playing FF8. And I understood Squall (most of the people who know me, would probably say I'm exactly like Squall. Luckly, for me, non of my friends are into computer games, or consoles, for that matter.) FF8 is just missing something that FF7 had. I guess, your right, the story arcs were just too small to follow.

I think I missed that part about Odine...really I probably just don't remember it. I'm currently playing the game. So maybe, I just hadn't gotten to that part yet....and if I did...guess I was half asleep when that dialog came up. I'm currently at the part where Selphie and Irvine take control of that Ship....which I can't remember the name of.

I'm not sure if I can find a away around that Odine Statement...other than that his assumption was wrong.....but that's way, too weak to fall back on. Maybe I'll just write a Fan Story about FF8, when I have time. I think I have enough material for one. I'll focus on Ultimecia's Time, and then join it to Squall's. It'll be just like the Fan Stories you see for FF7, but instead of being about the ending...it will be about the beginning.

You know...I remember seeing discusions on other forums, about how that ship was found, so easily, by Rinoa and Squall. It is assumed that it was floating in space for 17 years, with no one caring enough to go out and retreiving it. That Squall and Rinoa just happen to find it, in their moment of need. Well, I saw some thing in a FMV that may be that ship flying towards the Lunar Base. Next time you play the game, play close attention to the FMV that shows those capsoles, that Squall and company took, being retrieved. When the camara pans to the Space Station, you see a Red ship zooming towards it. The ship looks a lot like that ship the....Reanoke? (that can't be right...that' the name of that English Colony that mysteriously disappeared. I always have trouble remembering names. I'll probably remember the name after I sign off, I'm sure.) Anyway, you'll see something that looks like that ship. It very small and it's moving very fast, and it's moving away from the camera, so I'm not very certain that it is the ship.....it's red, anyway.

Of course then the monsters in the ship, and the instruction to kill them, don't make much sense. I guess, just keep your eyes open during that FMV and see if you see that red ship zooming towards the Space Station...and if you think that it may be Squall's ship....(I never noticed it until, now)

I forgot....Qhimm has an FMV viewer, for FF8, on the main page. Guess I can give that viewer a try (on Disk 3) and verify it for myself, it happens pretty quickly, in the game.

[This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited April 20, 2001).]
 
Hey kids i just wanted to say this is beautiful this whole post. Seriously. I think its the most eloquent debate or whatever i have ever seen on the net. n e who.. when you get done with the ff8 fanfic let me know man i would love to read it.
 
Will do....if I feel it's good enough, after I'm done (have no idea how long that will be though). I'll put it on my webpage, when It's done. I think I'm just going to write it as if it was a Journal, by Squall. I think that will be a lot easer to do than putting it in a real story format. Maybe later on, I'll write a real, fictional story on the subject, but I'm not ready for such a task, yet. ....I never wrote a story for fun, before. The only things I've ever written before were for Grades, or on Forums. I'm kinda curious if I can pull it off.
 
Really stories arent hard.. it just takes creativity.. I would recommend here to everyone take advantage of creative writing courses if your school offers them, but writing has to be your deal.. I love to write but i havent written anything for hella ever and a day.. i need to though.. Writing is so sweet.. my dream job would be like writing game dialogue or a story line for a game to take or something of the sort.. but for now it looks like graphic arts it'll be.. or software design... whatever!
 
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