Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?

[DLPB_]

None of that happens.  Sephiroth doesn't plant any mind anywhere. The Copies go to the Reunion because they contain Jenova cells that want to be reintegrated into the whole.  A weak-willed person can be manipulated to go somewhere or do something - and the drive to head to the Reunion is great - but there is no planting of minds or anything else.

Sephiroth was an experiment to create the ultimate Soldier. Jenova cells, as far as I am aware, did diddly squat in terms of "teaching him" anything. And in the end Sephiroth's will was so great that he was able to supersede Jenova and make it do his own bidding.  At least, that's how the game reads.

 

[stormstrife]

Sephiroth is locked in a materia crystal in the north the entire game, yet we see him multiple times, leaving the dead body of a weak failed clone. Not only that, but later in the game in the ancients temple, you see the effects, multiple copies of different consistencies and out of sync.

He's also talking about merging with Jenova, which is what he does after he finally calls meteor. Which counters the soul loss aspect, but turns him into a "weapon." You then weaken the Jenova part, and unaltered Sephiroth takes control one last time and allows you to kill him to end it.

Edit:
Sephiroth was also not made the same way Soldiers were. He was infused as a baby by Ghast. The rest were made as adults by Hojo. While I'll admit his will was so strong he almost became the main enemy, I still see Jenova as that.

 

[Covarr]

Eh? Jenova is a Shapeshifter. The Sephiroth we see throughout the game is Jenova taking Sephiroth's form.

 

[DLPB_]

As already explained by someone else, Sephiroth doesn't leave anywhere. Jenova is a shape-shifting alien that Sephiroth is controlling. The Sephiroth you see all through the game and are pursuing is Jenova. It broke out of the Shin-Ra building. From the point that Jenova escapes captivity, you are following Jenova being controlled by Sephiroth. That's why the blood trail ends in the Shin-Ra building and the president is killed by Sephiroth where the blood trail ends - his floor.

What doesn't make sense is that clothing and the sword can be replicated.  But what else were the writers going to do here?  They had to ignore logic for that.

 

[stormstrife]

No, Jenova headed to the north, leaving a few peices behind with the sephy pupa. When you see the Red soldier die, a Sephiroth copy is made from him and the peice of Jenova you fight when he drops it after it being "used up" and unable to be held by the soul form. The original Sephiroth pupa that killed the president with the masamune(which was probably in the shinra building) never even got on that ship. He killed the Midgar Zolom, got to Junon and found a mako/Jenova soldier that served his purpose and stuck the Jenova Birth arm in em, then went searching for the clone to make with Jenova Life/Death. There's a reason they're different names, Jenova gave him the instructions on how to build the soul needed, and the parts of her body you fight are built for those purposes.

All the Sephiroth clones kill themselves at the end of the Reunion. Right before you fight Jenova Death, the clone comments "You're Right. This is the end of this bodies usefulness" and disinegrates himself.

 

[DLPB_]

I'm not sure where you are getting that from, but you are categorically wrong. What I and others have said isn't in question - and is simply the main plot of the game. You are pursuing Jenova all through the game. She is a shape shifting alien on her way to rejoin with all the other cells. Sephiroth is using Jenova to do his bidding. That's all.

More to the point, how does this help clarify the poor writing and answer this thread?

 

[Covarr]

stormstrife, I think a lot of these misconceptions are coming from the word "clone". This was arguably Michael Baskett's biggest mistake in the game's original translation. They are, in no way, shape, or form, clones. Rather, they were an attempt to copy or clone the process by which Sephiroth was made so powerful in the first place.

Y'see, a typical SOLDIER would be treated with Mako to make him stronger, Sephiroth was something else. When he was still just an embryo inside Lucrecia, Jenova cells were implanted in him.

When "clones" are referred to in the game, what it means is "people who were subjected to a similar process". It's talking about duplicating the method used to make Sephiroth a supersolider, not literal duplicate people. Of course, they were all injected with Jenova cells later in life, so they were failures where Sephiroth was a success.

As to why Sephiroth can control the other people with Jenova cells: It's because Sephiroth is stronger-willed than Jenova. He wasn't able to overcome it completely, but he corrupted Jenova's will into something that resembles a twisted hybrid of both their thoughts and desires. This effect lasted in Jenova past Sephiroth's death. Any control Sephiroth seems to have over these other dudes is in fact Jenova's broken mind controlling them.

 

[stormstrife]

stormstrife, I think a lot of these misconceptions are coming from the word "clone". This was arguably Michael Baskett's biggest mistake in the game's original translation. They are, in no way, shape, or form, clones. Rather, they were an attempt to copy or clone the process by which Sephiroth was made so powerful in the first place.

Y'see, a typical SOLDIER would be treated with Mako to make him stronger, Sephiroth was something else. When he was still just an embryo inside Lucrecia, Jenova cells were implanted in him.

When "clones" are referred to in the game, what it means is "people who were subjected to a similar process". It's talking about duplicating the method used to make Sephiroth a supersolider, not literal duplicate people. Of course, they were all injected with Jenova cells later in life, so they were failures where Sephiroth was a success.

I'm not confused. I understand that. I'm pretty sure its actually Hojo who calls them clones, distorting the truth.

Y'see, a typical SOLDIER would be treated with Mako AND Jenova cells to make him stronger, Sephiroth was something else. When he was still just an embryo inside Lucrecia, mako and Jenova cells were implanted in him.

A slightly more accurate term would be Jenova clones, which would include Sephiroth. But the correct term is Jenova Hosts.

You don't think I think Cloud shares any DNA with Sephiroth do you, or any of the black cloaked zombies do? No. We know they all have Jenova cells though, and this is what gives the ability to connect them, not Sephiroth.

 

[Kaldarasha]

It's my turn now.
Can Jenova read memories? Yes. The Cloud we see until he falls into the lifestream is a mixture of Zax memories and Tifa's. In fact it doesn't matter that this is the true Cloud until then. It could be anyone else which may look a bit like him to trigger the memory steeling from Tifa. And this is shown in the game AND it is stated that Cloud's memories are based on Tifa's, she had about him. Remember the confusing text of Tifa in Cloud's mind, "Finding a memory which is his own" (something like that).
The memory steeling could also happen when Cloud meets Reno. At the start he doesn't knew who he is, but after a flash he does exactly knew who he is and what the Turk's businesses are. It could also be that the cells did read Aerith's mind in scene of sector if the flash symbols a mind read process, but it also happens in Kalm before the first flashback, which could mean on the other hand, that it indicates the producing of fake memory on the base of Zax ones. The last evidence why this Cloud is a creation of Tifa's memory: Cloud does exactly knew what in the letter for Tifa were written. Remember, in Cloud's mind the 'true Cloud' did say about Tifa's room, He was never in there.

Guys please keep in mind the story was written while they developed the game. They had a rough concept of the Ragnarok tale but that's all. They probably started to make the story consistent but had hadn't the time for it. I would say, if I look how long Cloud is acting like Zax, they came to the point where Cloud meets Aerith. After that he is acting differently.

 

[DLPB_]

Can Jenova read memories? Yes. The Cloud we see until he falls into the lifestream is a mixture of Zax memories and Tifa's.

Nope. Cloud explains in the dialogue above that he created the fake persona on stories he had heard.  Again, his actual memories have nothing to do with Jenova. Cloud really was at Niblheim. Tifa really was known to him as a child. He really did know Zax. Sephiroth makes a false claim to the contrary - but it's false to confuse Cloud and manipulate him.  Cloud bases everything on what he has heard and makes the story up himself. There is no memory reading or planting going on. At best you can say Jenova has the ability to make him  believe it and to confuse him - but not read memory from others and plant it onto him.  That simply never happens. Also, you will notice that Sephiroth is only able to manipulate Cloud when he is in close proximity.

. Remember the confusing text of Tifa in Cloud's mind, "Finding a memory which is his own" (something like that).

This entire scene is a metaphor for being in Cloud's mind. It's a clever device by the writers to show you something that is otherwise not physical. They don't "find" a memory.  They simply work out that Cloud was there all along and he realizes the truth. There is a similar clever scene that I like in Babylon 5, where Londo visits his own mind.

At the start he doesn't knew who he is, but after a flash he does exactly knew who he is and what the Turk's businesses are.

This is simply the real Cloud urging the fake Cloud to remember.  Also, when I say "fake Cloud", I am not talking about 2 different physical beings or two spirits or anything of the sort.  The closest you can come to it is split personality syndrome. The Cloud at the start of the game is using a fake persona because he was too ashamed at never making it into Soldier. He mixes what he has heard from Zax with his own memories to create a false persona.

. The last evidence why this Cloud is a creation of Tifa's memory: Cloud does exactly knew what in the letter for Tifa were written. Remember, in Cloud's mind the 'true Cloud' did say about Tifa's room, He was never in there.

He was in there. He visited Niblheim as a normal soldier with Sephiroth and Zax.  He went into that room. He said he was never in the room as a kid—not when he returned to the village. Just because that scene is not revisited does not mean it did not happen. The scene at Midhir is concerned with different parts of his life. Visiting her room to read a letter is unimportant to the plot at that point.

 

[Kaldarasha]

Nope. Cloud explains in the dialogue above that he created the fake persona on stories he had heard.  Again, his memory has nothing to do with Jenova. Cloud really was at Niblheim. Tifa really was known to him as a child. He really did know Zax. Sephiroth makes a false claim to the contrary - but it's false to confuse Cloud and manipulate him.  Cloud bases everything on what he has heard and makes the story up himself. There is no memory reading or planting going on. At best you can say Jenova has the ability to make him  believe it and to confuse him - but not read memory from others and plant it onto him.  That simply never happens.

“It took on the form of their
  dead mothers and fathers…
  Deceased family members…”

“To each it showed a
  ghost from the past.”

“I never did live up
  to being {CLOUD}.”
“I hope you meet him
  again someday,{TIFA}.”

“You see,those who are a good
  prospect for Soldier aren’t just
  irradiated with Mako…”
“Their bodies are actually
  injected with Jenova cells.”
...
“It’s just that if the process is used
  on someone who’s weak-willed,
  like me,they lose themselves.”

“…something was wrong.
  There was something strange
  about what you were saying.”
“…Not knowing things you should,
  and knowing things you shouldn’t.”

Btw. Cloud wasn't in here room.

“I felt so ashamed.
  I didn’t want anybody to see me.”

Get me right, I knew the text you refering and I see that you have a point there, but the game contradicts itself in that mattter.

 

[DLPB_]

Code: [Select]

“It took on the form of their  dead mothers and fathers…  Deceased family members…”“To each it showed a  ghost from the past.”

We can infer slight telepathic abilities here in close proximity (assuming it isn't a plot hole) - but certainly not implanting memories onto others .  Jenova simply shape-shifted into people that looked like their relatives.

Code: [Select]

“I never did live up  to being {CLOUD}.”“I hope you meet him  again someday,{TIFA}.”

He says this believing it, but It isn't true. We find out the truth at Midhir. This isn't proof of anything.

Code: [Select]

“…something was wrong.  There was something strange  about what you were saying.”“…Not knowing things you should,  and knowing things you shouldn’t.”

Again, this is consistent with the storyline. It makes total sense. Tifa did not know he was in Niblheim with Sephiroth - Cloud deliberately hid that knowledge from her by keeping his helmet on, remember? She thinks Cloud never came.  But he did.  All Tifa knows up until Midhir is that Zax came with Sephiroth and two ordinary soldiers.  She does not know that one of those ordinary soldiers was Cloud.

Code: [Select]

{TIFA}“That’s right!  It was Zax who came to  Niblheim with Sephiroth.”------------------------------{TIFA}“Then,where were you,{CLOUD}?”------------------------------{TIFA}“Did you see this?”------------------------------{CLOUD}“I… saw it.”------------------------------{TIFA}“You did come.  You did keep your promise.”------------------------------{TIFA}“You really did come  when I was in a bind.”------------------------------{CLOUD}“Sorry I…  didn’t get there sooner.”

Tifa doesn't remember Cloud being there when he rescued her because she was unconscious. Later, Cloud and Zax are found alive and placed in the Shin-Ra Mansion for experimentation.  Tifa is rescued from Hojo by Zangan.  We never see this happen in the game; we only read about it from a letter, years later.

Code: [Select]

‘{TIFA}, what has happened to our village? Was it all an illusion,or just a dream? No,it was neither. I remember clearly. I tried to save those still free of the flames,but I couldn’t muster the strength.{NEW} Burning with rage,I headed to the Mako reactor to kill Sephiroth. He was nowhere to be found. In his place,I found you,{TIFA}, collapsed inside. I felt saving you was far more important than going after Sephiroth.{NEW} Inside the reactor, there were others still breathing, but I was only able to save you.

 

[Kaldarasha]

I didn't say it that Jenova changes the memories of other persons but is able to alter the memories of its vessel. Let's assume that the happenings in Nibelheim are based entirely on what Zax told him (after all we don't see the battle between Cloud/Zax and Sephiroth). The character of Cloud is what he remembers from Zax appearance and what he knew from Tifa of him (for me it's clear that his character created by Tifa's memories of him, the reaction could happen because of her strong feelings for Cloud which may trigger the cells according to Ilfana). The real Cloud is sealed by the Jenova cells, which tries to get in contact with the current active one, when the situation fits or the cells are not very active.
Because Tifa's memories of him does only reach until Cloud leaves the village, Cloud uses the story he knows from Zax to fill the gap. This seems like a logical explanation to me with all the texts in mind we have had here.

 

[stormstrife]

DLPB, you mention Shinra completely replacing Nibelhiem, its inhabitants, and replacing all their memories. If you also note, its the largest concentration of "clones" anywhere in the game. I'd suspect every single person in that town is a Jenova host, they used her and she used them to replace the town, and the cloaks we see are regressed townies.

The only way to make sense of this, is if Shinra has tech to replace memories. But that Jenova with magic doesn't?

 

[DLPB_]

Shin-Ra doesn't replace their memories. They are all actors playing the part of the villagers.
There are no clones. They are just humans injected with jenova cells (not the villagers. They are just actors).

 

[Kaldarasha]

DLPB, you mention Shinra completely replacing Nibelhiem, its inhabitants, and replacing all their memories. If you also note, its the largest concentration of "clones" anywhere in the game. I'd suspect every single person in that town is a Jenova host, they used her and she used them to replace the town, and the cloaks we see are regressed townies.

The only way to make sense of this, is if Shinra has tech to replace memories. But that Jenova with magic doesn't?

That's really nonsense . The people with the normal mind are actors and the cloaked ones are copies. Only what we can say is Jenova can morph into people which are important to a person. Maybe that's why Jenova morphs into Sephiroth because it was an important person for the President?

 

[stormstrife]

There are no clones. They are just humans injected with jenova cells (not the villagers. They are just actors).

I'm not gonna repeat myself about the Jenova Hosts. If I call them clones, and you can't connect what I mean, given thats the term used in the game, w/e.

On the other hand. I do not think they're actor's. There are 5 years between Nibelhiem and Midgar. Cloud is not suited to the Soldier program, yet still underwent it. Nibelhiem was destroyed, and needed to be replaced to stop questions. I don't think it's farfetched to think they could have used him to "seed" all the townies memories we see. The "normal" townies don't notice the black cloaks at all. Not only that, but its very obvious in one of the houses, they used to be a family, as there is a child black cloak.

Jenova cannot move under her own power, at least not well or fast. Otherwise Sephiroth would never have been needed in Nibelhiem or the Shinra Building and as soon as they dug her up she would have crushed the humans. She does not shapeshift. The“It took on the form of their dead mothers and fathers… Deceased family members…” is a legend written by the Cetra trying to explain the "Calamity from the Skies." Its probably explaining their loved ones getting captured in battles, returning in the bodies of strangers, so convincing it was like killing/being killed by the ghost of that loved one, where it may have cried and killed itself after or vice versa.

 

[Kaldarasha]

Could please stay at what the game gives you instead of inventing wild theories?

Periodic Report For Professor Hojo

  1. Copy Activity

  Unfortunately,no Copies have
  left the village during this period.

  As previously reported,
  it would certainly appear that the
  Copies are sensing something.
  However,they only ever mutter
  the words ‘Reunion’ and ‘Sephiroth’,
  and show no desire to leave here.

  2. Classified

  A total of eight people have visited
  the village this period. Fortunately,
  none of them were aware of the
  incident five years ago. No-one
  has realized that the village has
  been restored to exactly how it
  appeared before the fire.

  The staff playing the villagers have
  also improved on their acting skills.
  There are no further issues to report
  at this time.

  End of report.

 

[stormstrife]

Well, I can't lie. I've played the game over 30 times, and never found that or don't remember it. So I will admit, that this shows they are definitely actors.

I still do think Jenova can manipulate memories. And I just figured Jenova would allow her cells to be used as far spread as possible to enable as many hosts as possible. Like the old science fiction trope of some amazing tech actually being an intelligent alien species for mind control.

 

[Kaldarasha]

The letter can be found in Tifa's (ex-)room.

If it makes the game logical for you, then it's fine. I like the interpretation of Brittenham. Not the interpretation itself more the idea he has about Jenova. It's that kind of depth a good written game should have. FF7 has a great story but is not well written. There are a lot of things which seems not well-conceived. I guess FF9 is exactly the opposite of that for me.