WEIRD FF8 ENDING?

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SaiNt: You're assuming there *is* a "smallest unit of time". What if there isn't? For example, give me the smallest decimal (real) number in existence...
 
Very valid point on the total mass of the universe being altered. Time traveling using Einstein's theories doesn't have this problem since your mass has already been "separated" from the rest of the universe when you started your journey, thus the total mass remains unchanged. Your time machine, after all, still exists in the "outside world" during the entire trip. Going back in time, let's say to a time before you were born, would be troublesome, because your mass wouldn't have existed in that time frame. More specifically, it wouldn't exist in your shape. You would introduce new matter, increasing the total mass of the universe. And that can't be good. ^^This could be solved though, for example we could think of time as two-directional, like the spatial dimensions. This is part of the explanation for theoretical phenomena like effect before cause. However, since time only seems to move in one direction in our universe, we instantly run into trouble.

So, in a universe where time only flows one way (our universe), you'd run into trouble traveling to the past, introducing duplicate matter. Then again, maybe it is perfectly acceptable to alter the mass of the universe? I mean, lots of matter gets dumped into black holes all the time.

And finally, a correction. Time, just as space, has infinite resolution; meaning there's no such thing as a smallest unit of time. If there were, things like waveforms could not exist. A sine wave, for example, would consist of small steps instead of a smooth curve, thus breaking physics theories by the hundreds.
 
Damn it! Stop replying so fast or I'll keep replying and not get back to by books!Assuming that there "isn't" a smallest unit in time, many physics laws would be broken.

Even if there isn't a smallest unit in time, it still does not prove my explaination wrong! If there isn't a smallest unit in time, time can only exist in two conditions; one that has infinite number of units and the other with no units at all making it one whole object by itself.

If time were to be indivisible and be a single object, then time would be indistinguishable between one second and the next. That would bring us to a condition that would be even worse;that the whole universe destroys and rebuilds mass and matter in an analogous cycle so there is no way time travel (back to the past) will be possible since there is no past to travel to in the first place.

If it were to be divisible into an infinite number of time frames, we would be getting a lot of zeros no matter what equation we make since anything divided by infinity is zero   :)
Simply said, time travel would again be not possible in this condition either.


[This message has been edited by The SaiNt (edited April 15, 2001).]
 
I don't quite follow your logic here... I'm comparing time to space. Space has inifite resolution, othewise theories based on waves wouldn't work. We humans have invented units to measure space, but no matter how small a unit we pick, a point can still exist between two of our unit marks. The same, I argue, is true with time. Division by infinity is no problem, as we calculate using our units, not the resolution of time/space itself.
 
Actually, infinity is Not A Number, as our maths lecturer keeps telling us at uni. You can't treat it as one. So you can't divide or multiply a normal number by infinity. Technically, infinity is a state of existence.
 
Division by infinity is nothing you'd want in your equations, that's the key issue.
 
Yes ... more or less. Dividing by infinity technically has as much mathematical meaning as dividing by a sock or a poodle. It just can't be done because one thing (infinity, a sock) isn't a number at all. It's a meaningless exercise.Of course, sometimes we behave like infinity is a number because it makes equations (like some graphs) easier to understand, but it really isn't...
 
Heh.  My current theory regarding the real world is that time is an abstract creation; something humans made up.  As I see it, I currently believe that the universe is a series of presents, with no past and no future.  No memory, that is.Movement of matter and energy through the universe, as well as the aging of objects... that's how we perceive time.  The past can't be changed because it doesn't *EXIST*... only the present does.  The future may or may not be able to be changed because it's merely the reconfiguration of the present into a new configuration over 'time'.  The only question is how much control does the present have over its new configuration; ie how much control does physics have?

That's an interesting question that I'll return to in a moment.

Time dilation/slowing down is possible in this theory since all it involves is slowing down perceived time and aging (remember, time is a human concept in this theory, and all that matters is the spectator; no global time here).

Of course, because the universe has no memory, it seems impossible to time travel to the past in this theory.  You can time travel to the future, of course, but all you're doing there is something similar to cryogenics; slowing down the aging and perceiving of your own personal time until your surroundings have aged the appropriate amount.

Now, back to determination and fate... personally, I'm not sure whether 'fate' exists or not ^_^  Einstein famously remarked that 'God does not play dice with the universe'... if that's true, then does no random element exist?  And if no random element exists, does that mean that everything I do and think could be predicted by a complex enough formula?


I think you get the idea I'm trying to put across here.  It's by no means the only theory that could work, but it's one I find compelling enough to believe in... for now.

Of course, what fictional universes use is a different matter.  Playing 'what-if' is a game lots of people love... which is, of course, why time travel stories can be so popular ^_^
 
Fice, I can't agree more with you that infinity is not a number. Strangely enough, my Maths lecturer tells me the same thing  :)Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that if you were to assume that there is no smallest unit in time, you will find that there is an unlimited amount of mass in the whole timeline. That shouldn't be the case, should it? I was also trying to put forward Terence's idea that the universe doesn't have any memory. If the universe doesn't have any memory, it doesn't keep any of the mass,matter or energy of the past. If the amount of mass, matter of energy is supposed to be constant, then the whole universe would be destroying itself and rebuilding itself in a whole analogous cycle. (Notice I don't use for the smallest unit of time since I'm gonna be corrected again)
 
So what you're saying is, if there's an unlimited "subdivision" of time (infinitely small units), and there's a finite amount of mass at any instant, that leads in total to unlimited mass?If that's what you're arguing (I might be understanding you wrong) then that doesn't follow. Think about the area of a rectangle.
 
I have to ask why you are arguing about this i mean its pointless to argue about anything where there isnt a way to find out.
I see time an endless tape which goes under a recording head  which is the present which means you could rewind it but in doing so the entire point on would be rerecorded with changing anything you had ther slightest contact with but that means you cannot go forwards in time because it has not yet been recorded
 
Well, *I'm* not particularly religious, but the whole "why argue when you can't find out" thing has just dismissed all religions as pointless...Some people (including me) like to argue (I mean intelligent argument here!) just for the sake of the argument. Sometimes you even learn something.
 
I don't dismiss religion as pointless, it is a method for governments to control the masses.
What I meant was why do you argue about this stuff in a forum dedicated to ff. The reason that the ending was as it was was to try and create a good happy ending it wasn't done with a view to science, they rarely are.    
Also it is pretty pointless to argue about something that has little effect on anyone, if you want to argue about something it should be relevent to the masses
 
-_-The general board is a place where any discussion can happen.  So long as the discussions are peaceful and don't get out of hand and don't belong in any other forum, then they are *relevant*.

If you don't want to read the discussion, then don't click on the thread.  This is your choice.

Please bear in mind the mandate of the General Forum: General FF/Square topics belong here, along with stuff that doesn't quite fit in elsewhere.

That second clause means that anything that doesn't fit in the other forums may be discussed here, so long as it doesn't get out of hand enough to require moderation.


Just because *you* see the discussion as pointless and boring, doesn't mean it shouldn't be here or that you should discourage people from participating.  That is not your decision.

You are free to express whatever displeasure you want, but I see a number of regulars to this forum apparently enjoying the discussion, and thus see no reason why it should be prematurely ended at this point.
 
Oh, and the word you're looking for is continuous, not singular.  In addition, what you said had no bearing whatsoever on the discussion, because the continuity of time is not what was under discussion here.
 
Time is wierd stuff...  I've tried to figure it out and it just gives me a headache.  When I see a "time" movie or read a "time" book, I try not to think about the details because it might just confuse me, looking for loopholes and inconsistancies and stuff.ANYWAY
I think that the only part of "time" that exists is RIGHT NOW.  The present.  We cannot travel back in time, because the past does not exist anymore.  It only existed in the past.  The future will exist in the future.  The present is what exists now.

Time travel into the past is impossible, because it could cause some wierd things to happen (like the paradox about you killing yourself, or your parents or something) and also... where are the time travelers?  You'd also think if people ever invent backwards time travel, some insane terrorists might get it and come back and blow up the world with whatever big bombs exist then, causing another similar paradox.  Not to mention, the past doesn't exist anymore and cannot be returned to or altered.

Time travel into the future may be possible, but it wouldn't technically be time travel.  Really, time for a person could somehow be "accellerated" (by, I dunno, whatever space stuff we can do to speed up time) to an extreme rate, causing only seconds to pass for the person but years to pass for everyone else.  However, returning to the past would not be possible.

That's my time theory.

[EDIT]: Clarifications, corrections, editions.  Ok, ok, only one sentence...

[This message has been edited by Aaron (edited April 17, 2001).]
 
Geez......I was basing all this on FF8....and was trying to make it a little more intresting....and then the forumulas, and theories from, dead people....(Theory of Relativitity and such).

Frankly....It's just boring.

In FF8 there is only one physical TimeTraveling...and that was during TimeCompression. And for whatever, unknown reason, Squall's party was the only ones allowed to move around in that TimeFlow. In FF8, I doubt it was meant to be taken as TimeTraveling....Square made a different plane of Time and called it TimeCompression.....

Ok...Terence. I haven't thought too much about the Junction rules of FF8. But here's what I do know....GF's either choose to be part of Squall's Party, or Squall Steals them by drawing them out of the enemy. Guess there are two types of GF's....the Slaves and the Masters. Masters must be beaten and the Slaves can be taken or maybe the Slaves like working with people, while the Masters feel that there involvment, must be earned.

The GF's allow Squall and Party, to use magic. (For some reason monsters can use magic, too.) And GF's also give Special Abilities to Squall and Party.

Ellone is able to Connect present consciences to Past consciences that she pysically knew. The problem was that even though Squall was in Laguna's mind....Laguna couldn't understand him....maybe Squall's voice was unheard because Squall is really living in the past and not the present. Ultimecia, being from the real present, was able to take control of the person she was in....call it a clearer reception....or maybe it was because she was a sorceress...but that goes against my theory, so I'm sticking to the reception thing.

What are GF's? I like to think of them as DemiGods. Hyne was probably one of these DemiGods. It is said in the game that the Great Hyne Created People....and then the people uprised against him and defeated him....(here is where my memory is fading) What happens next is a deal is struck and the Hyne gives some of his powers/body to the females, of the people, he created. That is when the creation of the Sorceress and the beginning of the powers, begins. (There is no real loop of sorceress power around Ultimecia.....I'll explain the reasoning further down.)

It's also stated in the game, that the powers of the sorceress were known not to be spread, too thin. Which means the powers were in a very limited amount of women. A number that could well be taken as only Edea, Rinoa and Adel during our viewing of the game; and no one else.

Let's go ahead and put Ellone into a non-sorceress catagory....someone with a special ability...a freak of nature. And Adel wanted her as a successor for that, very reason. Ok....Now for your answers....

Ellone's powers could be called Junctioning...like a Plane and a Car can be considered modes of transportation....The same thing...but not really, the same when you analyse the differences.

Edea's powers were fully passed on to Rinoa; Rinoa *HAS* Edea's powers. Thus, you can't say that Ulti got them in the end.

Quit looking at time as a sequence of events, of Past, Present, and Future. Try to look at time from one persons perspective. In FF8, it's Squall's perspective. (heh heh....theory of Relativity in it's truest form...also this will prove that the powers don't really, loop around Ultimecia.) In Ultimecia's Time Flow...the original time flow...the powers were passed on to her. As soon as she messed with her own past; her true present and her past, (to the point of where she interfered), was altered. And Squall's TimeFlow then becomes the Original present. I already went through all of this....and don't feel it's neccessary to write it down, again.

About the happy ending thing:

To me...fate equals no choices. And a life that is based on no choices, isn't my idea of a happy, ending universe. I like to think that we make our own fate, good or bad.

If you view, "FF8" in a linear Past-Present-Future way, then you don't choose your own fate....your fate is predetermined from the beginning of time.

If absorbed my idea of where I was trying to take the story, of FF8. Past-Present-Future are flowing, and the idea of choosing your own fate, comes true. The only flaw that I see, is that in choosing your own fate, you can effect the course of many other fates. Ultimecia's choice of screwing with her own past, effected a lot of thing, in the FF8's Universe.

Being that this has turned into a technical debate of TimeTravel....guess I'll bow out. 'Cause I don't know anything about quantum physics or theories by a bunch of dead people.

BTW: There is a reason why Theories are called theories..... Don't base the Universe on other people's ideas.....use other people's ideas to create your own ideas.

[This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited April 17, 2001).]
 
Where do you get Slaves and Masters from?  Once again, you're complicating the subject...As far as we know, GFs are entities of pure magic.  However, more importantly, they can reside within humans through the use of ParaMagic (created by Dr.Odine).  How do they exist within humans?  We're not sure... but the line between these entities and entities born of simple imagination is *VERY* thin.  Squall created Griever a long time ago... probably shortly after Ellone vanished from his life.  That's what Ultimecia pulls out of Squall's mind.  Griever was the strongest GF in Squall's mind... even though he had never thought of it as a GF before.

Whether they decide to help or hinder the party is up to them, of course.  The GFs you draw are just those that are already clammed up in someone's head, granting them powers (or being imprisoned).


Ellone's power is similar to junctioning because it allows a person to reside within another's mind and grant power to that person... and also to somewhat influence their actions.  Perhaps willpower is the determining power here... even when Squall got sent into Rinoa by Ellone herself, Ultimecia was strong enough to push Squall out when she detected him.

And now, looking at your own answers...


"In Ultimecia's Time Flow...the original time flow...the powers were passed on to her. As soon as she messed with her own past; her true present and her past, (to the point of where she interfered), was altered."

Not possible.  She's using the Ellone Machine.  And Ellon'e power can't change the past.  Ellone has *SAID* this.  It's demonstrated in the game too.

Since she can't alter the past, then from her point of view, she cannot change her present.  Thus, nothing she can do can alter the events that will arrive up to her.

That one critical flaw is really where you're going wrong... because a lot of your arguments are based upon Squall's timeline becoming some kind of 'true present'... which you say can only happen once the past is changed.  And yet... Ulti can't change it.  She's using a machine that's based upon Ellone's own brainwaves... it thus suffers from all the limitations and powers that Ellone had.

Because you haven't proved that Ulti really can change the past, all your previous arguments come undone.


The other thing you're doing is you're misusing the theory of relativity.  You're starting to say that one person's perception of time can alter another person's perception of time.  You keep on trying to hammer this 'original present' idea... which requires more a *VERY* complex version of time travel theory.  You're obviously not using the Quantum Universe theory for instance... your theory has no rules that really states when the 'Original Present' starts and how Ultimecia can affect the events leading up to that.


Your theory seems to be built out of one thing; you don't like the idea of a fated universe, despite a lot of the evidence in FF8 that points to it.  And because you don't like it, you've created another theory to try and explain things.  Maybe with enough tweaking you'll get it to finally work and fit with every piece of evidence in the game and actually have rules better than 'the protagonist stopped time travelling here, so this is where the new present must begin'.  If that's the case, then there's nothing I can do to convince you... but it all seems very unnecessary.


A few more comments.

Squall's party was not the only ones to time travel.  In fact, quite a few people time travelled as well... the Card Queen, the CC Group that had sneaked aboard the Ragnarok....

From that, we come to the conclusion that maybe *every* living being was pulled towards that single point of time where Ultimecia dwelled... but most would be behind the Time Compression shields around the main cities, or may have already been absorbed into Time Compression, as Xu puts it.

(Time Compression was merely a merging of all time into one single Present where time would grind to a halt; everyone was invited)


By the way, if you're still going to persist with this, you should realise this; the character that goes back the furthest using Ellone Power or Time Compression is not Squall.  It's Ultimecia when she enters Young Adel and begins Time Compression.  Squall *NEVER* goes back that far.  Be very careful which time you choose to be the 'original present'...
 
Oh, and as for that final retort...I've thought of time travel for a very long time now.  Almost everything I've said I came up with alone without help.  I merely used outside sources to help show their validity.

Making up new theories is all very well... but if another model fits the perceived evidence better....

I'm sorry, but as it stands, your theory still seems too contrived.  You even seem to contradict your own theories time and again: (since Squall went back in time and told Edea about SeeD, shouldn't *Edea's* time become the new Original Present then?)
 
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