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AC isn't true to the original because of its crazy endless battle sequences and CGI fests - and I'd say that is an art style also?  or at the least, CGI seems to make developers go that route.
 
Look up Bravely Default or Bravely Second to see SE games with soul.
You forget that SE is now a publishing company, and that a lot of the games they publish are not produced in-house, and that even some of the games that are, are being produced by smaller teams for smaller markets, who therefore don't work with the same constraints as their AAA departments.
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lol, yes, case in point. Publishing =/= developing. When I say "from" I mean it as "developed by".

Well, the FF7 community of "real fans" is so broad that it exhibits the signs of the unpleasable fanbase. If you prefer to be negative so that you won't get disappointed, I can appreciate that. But if people decide to dislike it, or be dissatisfied by a product "for the masses" in order to assert some kind of intellectual superiority, I don't find it very constructive.
I'll be remaining reasonably optimistic, but that's just me. If the remake doesn't turn out well, I'll still have plenty of other games to play.
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I try to have realistic expectation when it comes to new FF titles (or anything). The way I think these game will turn out, as a whole, is something I probably will not like (which, of course, is based on recent things SE have made and the general direction they seem to go). I don't choose it per se. The reality of it just don't favour me if you will. That does not mean I'm depressed/trying being negative or anything.
 
AC isn't true to the original because of its crazy endless battle sequences and CGI fests - and I'd say that is an art style also?  or at the least, CGI seems to make developers go that route.
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In my opinion, these crazy endless battle sequences have their origin in the storyboarding/script, not CGI. You could very well execute crazy endless battle sequences with a drawn anime style.
 
In that respect, what I'm rather hoping for is that the devs of the remake of FF7 won't be constrained by some kind of "20th anniversary deadline". I believe we would agree that they'd take their time to polish this one (it's not like waiting for 1 or 2 more years will matter.
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This is the clincher for me. I think the entire fanbase would agree that they shouldn't rush it.

I'll be remaining reasonably optimistic, but that's just me. If the remake doesn't turn out well, I'll still have plenty of other games to play.
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And a Nibelheim to get back to work on ;)
 
No matter what the remake ends up being, I personally will win.
If it's a fantastic remake, I'll definitely enjoy playing that in 2025 when I can afford a PS4.
If it's a good remake, I might play it and enjoy that.
If it's a bad remake, I will certainly enjoy pouring metric tons of salt into people's wounds.
If it's a horrible remake, see above but for an unlimited amount of time.

But most of all, I have zero investment and expectations because having them is one sure way to be disappointed no matter what.
 
The only gripe I will most likely have with this remake is the voice acting. I truly hope that they spend more than $200 of their overall project budget on a decent voice acting director. Advent Children in English made me cringe. Other than that, I am sure they will do a great job. Whether that means the remake closely resembles the original or otherwise. Part of me wants them to take a lot of creative license story-wise and do some things differently, seeing how we've combed through the original with a fine-tooth comb already.
 
What is that ? I look away for a few days and when I'm back there's suddenly a remake in the oven ? ..That's your fault Dan ?
Maybe I should leave and come back again and Half Life 3 will be out.

I've first heard of it yesterday on euronews, I was shocked x) (about FFVII, not HL)

Well....I don't know. I was WAYYY more astonished, amazed and excited when I discovered Qhimm and what mods can do. For me, Qhimm allows for an enhanced FF VII, and the remake will be something like another kind of FF VII than the one we know. If I want FF VII, I play FF VII, and if I want another kind of FF VII I'll play the remake (if I like it). That's the way I feel it, so no real expectations. I'd just wish the remake will be a balanced and subtle game ( that's asking for too much? ).. and please, no stupid gameplay either. If that, I may like it, even if it is a bit far away from the FF VII we love.

But it just cannot be FF VII. It is made and cannot be remade without becomming something different.
And why not put a VR device on the face and feel something different, never as great as what we played when we were teenagers, but a new and still enjoyable experience....maybe.. I just hope it won't be a hollow game.
And if it is AC-like, that may give me a reason to play the spin-offs. But the true FF VII will still hold its very place in that sweet corner of my mind, and remain what it is.

And also, will be curious to see what content the game will bring to mod 98 FF VII.
 
I wouldn't mind a new battle system (called "Modern" mode or something similar) in the style similar to FFXV or FFXIII, but I would like to be able to switch to other characters at any time to control. The characters that are being controlled by the AI, fall into the style specific to them such as Tifa acrobatically applying various basic melee attacks by jumping off of walls, etc - using her environment. The style of the attack when the player selects it, would also be randomised the same way the game decides the style of the attack for the AI. In conjunction with that, players could set commands for the AI characters to give them specific roles just like in FFXII. Also maybe the ability to swap out characters like in FFX and make battles more tactical to take advantage of this feature.

With that, if people didn't want to play a modern battle mode, then there could be a "Classic/Original" mode option where the battle system is like-for-like of the original and there would obviously be an option to switch between Classic and Modern when selecting a new game or changing between the two in-game. Faithful and modernised at the same time, suiting everyone's taste.

I also thought of how some of the mechanics of battles system could work.

The battle mechanics in terms of characters intelligence. With a foe that is susceptible to more physical damage from being attacked from behind, the higher INT an AI controlled character has, the more likely they are to jockey into a position to try and exploit such a weakness. You'd obviously tie it to the foe's INT, to be more aware of its weakness and position themselves where the weakness can't be exploited. The same could apply to a players accuracy, from outright missing the foe, to causing critical hit. Again tied into the foe's agility, the foe could could just dodge the attack like a boss.

I think this would give battles a very natural flow and create a realistic visual representation of the party's stats and a clear visual growth of the characters through out the game, getting, stronger, faster, more intelligent etc. Just like you might see of a player in a sports game.

I've put too much thought into this, as you can tell.
 
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lol, yes, case in point. Publishing =/= developing. When I say "from" I mean it as "developed by".
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Sorry, I am not a mind-reader - and seeing as SE has been primarily a publishing company for quite some time now, I took "from" to mean "from SE" not "developed in-house in SE" - and seeing as how there is no real distinction a lot of the time, since many teams are made up of contractors to begin with, it doesn't really make sense to draw a line in the sand like that.

There are already rumors going on that this game is primarily being developed by third-party contractors (which would make sense when SE already has so many titles on its plate).

It doesn't seem like we would use terms such as "spirit" or "true to the original" with the same ideas in mind. IMO, AC isn't "true to the original" because of its plot and character development, not because of its art style.
I do believe it's true to the original, personally. I don't think that Midgar is so "filled with neons and vibrant colors". Some elements are (Honey Bee Inn, Don Corneo's mansion), but many scenes are made with piles of rusted beams and worn corrugated sheets (I've been examining the Sector 5 scenes for a while). 
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Then re-examine them. Even the reactors you visit clearly use color palettes with deep blues and purples, yellows and greens etc.
Even the metal and rust in FF7 has stronger base-colors than pretty much the deepest color in the remake trailer.

The church, and Aerith's house, the glows that emit from the windows and doors of the houses, the market, the neon-signs, electric currents, and all filled with strong, colorful NPCs.

Compare that to the trailer with its subdued grays, and steel, glass and plastic look I can't even begin to fathom how you could compare the two.

I do believe that the original art style for the fields was aiming at a "realistic" rendition of the environments, with the technological limitations of the times (lighting techniques, shading techniques, limited color palette, etc.). 
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Are you for real? Are we splitting hairs here? Would you prefer it if we used the term "semi-realism"?
It's quite obvious that I was talking about by what degree the game was going for photo-realism - and it quite clearly isn't -
FF7 clearly aimed for style, which should be apparent just by looking at the choice of the character designs, and sketches for the environments.

Calm, Cosmo Canyon, the Church, For Condor - I can keep on going - there is absolutely nothing realistic about the color palettes, the architecture, or the scales used for these environments, and non of that has to do with technical limitations, since there is nothing about the times that would have stopped the creators from choosing more subdued colors, more realistic architecture and scales that actually make sense.
(consider that games like Resident Evil 1 predate FF7 and clearly pulled off realistic pre-rendered backgrounds that had non of the artistic liberties of FF7)

In my opinion, the chibis of the original game were jarring, and I always thought it needed to be addressed.
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Thank god opinions are just that - opinions. Have you seen what happens when you put the battle models into the games using the mods on this site? Now that is jarring as hell. The environments were clearly not designed for that at all.

With that in mind, I don't think that a "realistic" art direction is detrimental, or vastly deviating from the spirit of the original.
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With what in mind? You have yet to make a coherent point about what the spirit of FF7 is supposed to be, so how do you qualify that opinion?
The original, as I've already said and which you've completely ignored, is game sporting a 90's anime style - all the way from the art-direction to the actual plot and characterizations throughout.
There is a reason people are expressing doubts about how the remake will handle the cross-dressing scene, or the Honey Bee Inn, or Nanaki in a sailor costume, or Gold Saucer, or the Snowboard scene - because by all accounts, these things work well in granted the particular style of the original, and would look weird as hell in the style of AC or the style of the current trailer.
If you start cutting all these things out for the sake of a more sombre game, then again, how much sense does it make to claim that it's true to the spirit of the original?
I'm left to wonder what "being true to the original" even means to a person who'd make that argument.

The Last of Us being emblematic of what people don't like about AAA industry? Sorry, I can't agree with that.
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You don't have to. Not taking into account that The Last of Us made it into pretty much every "overrate game" of its year, or of the seventh generation in total - it's literally a boxed collection of every PS3 action game convention ever. Linear design, way too much exposition, bland and repetitive game-play, lots of focus on flash and graphics, and a bunch of token game-play mechanics thrown together despite many of them not really serving much of a purpose except padding out the game.


In that respect, what I'm rather hoping for is that the devs of the remake of FF7 won't be constrained by some kind of "20th anniversary deadline". I believe we would agree that they'd take their time to polish this one (it's not like waiting for 1 or 2 more years will matter, and for the anecdote, it is actually possible to polish a turd)..
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Optimally, I think they should take their time on it, but I don't think they will. I also think that if Nomura and Co did take their time on it, it might very well end up in development hell like FFVersus13 did.

Otherwise, I believe that the comparison "Greedy publishing companies" vs "Friendly crowd-funding platforms" is a lot less "black & white" world than what you described.
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Not really, because I didn't make a black and white statement. I simply said that crowd-funding is preferable to being pushed around by greedy corporations - which it is. Are there issues with crowd-funding platforms? Sure. That wasn't my point though, nor something I feel I had to qualify granted the fact that I qualified exactly what kind of thing I was comparing it too - which was a very specific problem inherent to most larger publishing companies.
Did you do anything to address that point? Nope.

Well, the FF7 community of "real fans" is so broad that it exhibits the signs of the unpleasable fanbase. If you prefer to be negative so that you won't get disappointed, I can appreciate that. But if people decide to dislike it, or be dissatisfied by a product "for the masses" in order to assert some kind of intellectual superiority, I don't find it very constructive.
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Well, I am not, so there's that. I am simply voicing my opinion, which is a reflection of how I honestly feel about these products.
If you thought that, then maybe you should examine why you thought so?
Criticizing a art or media for its mass appeal is not a criticism of the people who enjoy it, unless you assume that the only reason they enjoy it is for its mass appeal - however, I am not making that argument.

I've enjoyed many things that have mass-appeal - I am simply saying that when a thing is made with mass-appeal as a starting point, then the thing is going to be bland - and while that might work for a person who's new to that kind of product, it's not going to work for someone who's been jaded by diminishing returns after having experienced multiple similar products.

If FF7R ends up being just another FF15, or the next The Last of Us in RPG form, to me, that's an issue - because I've already played way too many games like that, and they're not that much fun to play anymore.
 
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I disagree with a number of points that you made (in particular, the degree of realism the game was originally aiming at, and how technical limitations constrained how the environments would be rendered). It also looks like neither of us is going to convince the other of the superiority of his viewpoint. I guess it goes to show that, no matter which direction FF7 takes, it's going to leave many people dissatisfied.
 
This isn't a difficult concept really... the majority of FF7 fans fell in love with FF7 because of its story, battle system, design and everything else that was there originally.  And if they change one or all of these, it will not be received well with fans.  But they don't care about that since the "fans" are not large enough anymore to bow down to.  They'll change it to have mass market appeal, so that means saying bye bye to ATB, sane cutscenes, the original design, dozens of scenes and options, and they'll also "update" the music without giving us an option of having the original.  I hated the FFX "remaster" music they did but originally they gave no option to allow the original.  I am guessing FF7 will be the same. 

In short, they are going to update the game to a new generation. A generation that sucks monkey balls and wouldn't know good game design if Sephiroth smacked them in the chest.  I have to admit that I have been DREADING a remake of this game for the last 5 years.  Most have done nothing but look forward to it, but I don't look forward to it when it is being handled by those loons.  I know that we always have the original game, but that;s about the only good thing I can think of.  I suppose when someone craps all over something I feel passionately about (even if they are the original writers), it annoys me.  Especially when they are crapping over it purely for financial gain.

If they had announced that the remake of FF7 was going to be pre-rendered scenes and in the spirit of FF7 original, I'd now be really looking forward to it.  But even that one small cut-scene makes me want to smash them in the face.  If they had used the prerendered setup (in 720p), they'd save a ton of time and the rest of the game would benefit from the extra time available and the fact the style would be maintained.  It's already apparent where most of the time and effort is going to be spent - it isn't going to be on good game mechanics or level-headed storytelling.  Can't wait to see Zax winking away as he slaughters 100 soldiers again.
 
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I want to point out this NeoGAF post from the same guy who leaked that the remake would be announced at this E3. He's got a pretty solid track record for leaks (almost certainly works for Sony), and he confirmed the remake back in February 2014. The game's been in development for a good long while, then, even before Nomura had to leave FFXV.
 
This was posted on TLS. It's something he posted on NeoGAF. I'll try and post them as they come.

So when planning began a long time ago, there were several issues. It's a big game, it's very important to Kitase, and obviously Nomura, and fans. There were other issues here, but we'll just skip to the game. You're going to remake this game. Now, people will say that since there's already a story, music, script, that a lot of the work is done. This is wrong. You have a starting point, but this is very much like building a new game. That takes a very long time.

Since there's a huge difference in technology, and this is the remake of a game that exists, you have to go through, and address everything. You have to get the scenes, and then decide what you're going to do with them. Some stuff is pretty clear, and it's mostly about presentation. For example, nothing major storywise is being changed. No one has to worry about that. Cloud is still a nutcase, Aeris is still going to die, Weapons are going to run rampant, the Lifestream, and pretty much every important story moment is going to be present. That's FF7. You can't change that. But because this is a new generation of technology, and it's a proper game, that alone brings changes from a design point of view.

Now you have a balancing act of lots of small things, and lots of major things. Kitase, I can assure you, is someone who is quite involved in making sure they try to stay as faithful as possible. He's someone who worried the most originally about this project, and he's also someone who's heavily involved right now. And the original writer is back with Nomura too, so it's a big thing.

Let's use examples:

They want to integrate Zack more, so how do you do it? In the original, it's very much an optional thing, but that's not as realistic now. You can flesh it out too, but in order to integrate it, it needs to be placed somewhere. This is a technically a script change, but it's not a bad thing. It also takes work.
Characters like Yuffie and Vincent which are optional need to be integrated.
How do you tackle the implied sex scene in this game? This is going to be in the game, but it's another presentation issue. How do you do it this time, over two decades later?
How do you tackle Cloud beating the hell out of Aeris? It was fine then, but this needs to be thought about. It's kind of an important story beat for his character because of what happens next, so do you want to change it? But at the same time, is it something you're comfortable leaving in, or should it be altered a little?
A lot of the side story stuff, can it be integrated better, or will some of it have to be cut?
They need to change up the Junon infiltration a little. Red XIII being in a suit isn't that big of a deal, but the ship aspect needs to be worked on now because you have a parade, which then leads to boarding the ship, and the big boss battle. This area and sequence has to be overhauled. It's a good amount of work.

Everything related to the story needs to be addressed within the confines of the new game, and the presentation of that new game on current technology. This means going through all of that, and seeing how to fit in the important things, what to flesh out, and what to alter. Basically, you're designing everything again. There's something to work with, but it's much like creating something new due to the work it actually involves.

Separate to that, there are a lot of other things. There are a lot of mini-games in FF7, notably the snowboarding game, and also the Chocobo breeding. With the former, it doesn't make as much sense to have it happen like that, so you need to integrate it all again, but at the same time, you can still leave something as a nod for fans. How do you do this? Is it possible to do that? Then there is also the case of some stuff being replaced, and maybe Nomura wanting to add other mini-games.

Basically, it's a lot of work. They have to prioritise major things with minor things, and as time goes on, they'll probably have to do it again depending on the development progress. This doesn't mean they can't show you anything this winter. Far from it. They're at a place right now, where they have a little to show, but it's a big game, and it's still in its infancy. It's not as simple as if they have something to show, then they're really ahead of the game. They're not rushing this.

It's important to all of them to remain as faithful as possible, but at the same time, create a new FF7 for a new generation of fans as well as old, and something which takes advantage of what is available today. This means design changes, execution changes, alterations etc. And because you're not just creating something new, and have to keep in mind a beloved game, the cuts you decide to make, or the changes you decide to do, have to be careful. As time goes on, and more work is done, there'll probably be other changes too. It's also important that the creators create something that they're pleased with because this is a project that's going to take a lot of their investment, time, and effort. It's unfair to not give them a chance to show you their new vivion at least.

This game being announced right now isn't ideal. That wasn't the plan. This time last year, no one was thinking, "Hell yeah, let's announce FF7, and have fans wait a few years again! That's going to be great!"

But the problem is, PS4 isn't doing great in Japan. There are a bunch of issues, FFXV has taken longer than expected, and it's basically a crap situation to be in if I'm frank. So this announcement is there to build some faith, and also try to make people believe that there are a lot of big plans for the PS4. And there is a lot to come, but because of so many issues, it's taken time. Thankfully, since FFXV is around the corner, and KH3 is also progressing well, it's not that bad of a time really. Those games are coming soon, and this announcement happening now, as well as those games releasing should help fans believe more in companies trying their best to get content out there.

It also didn't help that FFXV had a bit of a negative shadow over it with people complaining last year when it was revealed Nomura has been removed, and then again recently when Tabata mentioned the changes. Now people know what Nomura is doing. There doesn't need to be doom and gloom over him leaving. He's busy, he's working on something. Leave him to it.

FFXV, also, can now be focused on as its own entity, and hopefully have people look at it as what it is rather than what they felt it could have been. And this game is actually coming soon, so there's something to be actually be excited for.
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There wasn't an insinuation of sex in the original (you'd have to scrape the barrel to find it) - that only came about because of a poor localization into English (and people's bad imagination).  They were going to have a scene where Cloud and Tifa came out of the chocobo stables, but that never got anywhere other than being a joke. 

It's important to all of them to remain as faithful as possible, but at the same time, create a new FF7 for a new generation of fans as well as old, and something which takes advantage of what is available today. This means design changes, execution changes, alterations etc. And because you're not just creating something new, and have to keep in mind a beloved game, the cuts you decide to make, or the changes you decide to do, have to be careful. As time goes on, and more work is done, there'll probably be other changes too.
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That's simply what I (and others here) am saying but in a more diplomatic and spin-doctor way.  That entire paragraph is fighting with itself, too.  "Faithful as possible" isn't good enough when they're deciding what "as possible" is.

the cuts you decide to make, or the changes you decide to do, have to be careful.
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How about not making any cuts and change only what needed changing in the first place?  Oh, of course not.  How silly of me :P

Well, I'm just gonna have to hope I am completely wrong on this, but I don't think so. I'll revisit this thread again when it's been out a while. :-D
 
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How about not making any cuts and change only what needed changing in the first place?  Oh, of course not.  How silly of me :P
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Yeah exactly.

"But because this is a new generation of technology (...) that alone brings changes from a design point of view."
So he's basically saying that modern technology implies per se realism and modern gameplay ? Like, that is the technology being more advanced now that forces you to make the game like that ?
If they put away the original style, I fear for the spirit of the game.
 
I found some solace in that post, I remain excited.

Also this isn't a debate forum last time I checked, we are all entitled to our own opinions. For example, I did interpret a sex scene between Cloud and Tifa.

What I'm trying to say is that the walls of text attacking each others opinions and ideas are boring and in some cases slightly insulting. Doesn't make for a place where discussion can be cultured.
 
As I said, you very likely only interpreted that because the faulty localization ended up implying it.  The original text and the actual scenes simply don't bear it out.  You can imagine it happened (that's your prerogative), but the scenes and original text don't support it.  Imho that's a good thing, the last thing FF7 needed was teeny sex romp in what is meant to be a heartfelt scene.
 
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